Suggestions for Coke ** NILIF people look at pg 5 **

DPU

Liesje

DPU

Liesje

Not all dogs learn a perfect recall in a matter of months...

OMG, months????????  What do you guys do that it takes months or never happens?  For my fosters there is some assemblence there on day 1.  Its an absolute must!

 

Wow you have a perfect recall on day one?  Maybe I should just hire you.... 

So "some assemblence" means perfect recall to you?

Hey now you know how I feel   I said Coke ignores us or makes it into a game when the recall is attempted in VERY distracting situations and you said Coke has NO recall.

Actually, the first day we got him, there was no semblance, since he didn't even know his own name.  We changed his name pretty quickly with the name game, and when DHs work on recall failed miserably (he would repeat the name, repeat the word, Coke would not do it...I think he learned to ignore the recall words more than come to them), I changed his recall word a few months ago.  I'm not sure if I made a thread about it or not.  I realized that every time I made a certain noise, Coke would come running to me.  Now that is his recall (not "come" or his name, calling his name means he needs to stop and look, making the noise means he needs to come back). This noise works very well in the home, in our yard, and in new places as long as there's NOT a new pack of dogs running amuck, but I don't know if I can make the noise loud enough to recall him in a big field with other dogs barking so I may switch to a whistle as Karyn suggested.  Guaranteed to be heard and make the same sound every time.

Benedict

But I'm not talking about aggression, which is a problem in any dog and needs to be tackled.....I am talking about breeds specifically bred to be independent and who are therefore a challenge to train and not always completely obedient.  I for example am getting a breed that has been looking after sheep without need for a shepherd's guidance for 2000 years - they are capable of logical thought processes and decision making and will sometimes believe that their decision is more logical than yours.  That is not the same things as aggression AT ALL.   

My example with Pags was to show that no matter what the dog's state of mind, background, or breed, or situation, all dogs are capable of learnng the COME command reliably and their activity can be interrupted.  I have had a lot of the breeds come to live with me and I have not found one that was not capable of learning these two commands.  I don't accept the breed as an excuses for not being responsible and teaching the dog these life saving commands.  I just do it and keep at it as long as it takes.

DPU

Benedict

But I'm not talking about aggression, which is a problem in any dog and needs to be tackled.....I am talking about breeds specifically bred to be independent and who are therefore a challenge to train and not always completely obedient.  I for example am getting a breed that has been looking after sheep without need for a shepherd's guidance for 2000 years - they are capable of logical thought processes and decision making and will sometimes believe that their decision is more logical than yours.  That is not the same things as aggression AT ALL.   

My example with Pags was to show that no matter what the dog's state of mind, background, or breed, or situation, all dogs are capable of learnng the COME command reliably and their activity can be interrupted.  I have had a lot of the breeds come to live with me and I have not found one that was not capable of learning these two commands.  I don't accept the breed as an excuses for not being responsible and teaching the dog these life saving commands.  I just do it and keep at it as long as it takes.

You're putting words into my mouth that weren't there.  I'm happy to discuss the subject further but this thread is not the place.   

snownose

Liesje.....like I said before....get a dragline and a whistle.......use steak or chicken for recall treats........I am telling you, if you use this, you will get results.....don't give up on it........this needs to be done every day......

That would be my secret for a tough recall dog.........

Ditto that!  I would also START OVER with recall using a new word (a whistle is not always handy when you need it) that he has NOT learnt to ignore or associated with a running away game....  Was it you that "started over" using German commands to get more precision with Kenya or am I thinking of someone else with a GSD? (Edit - ignore me, I've caught up and see you have already done that )

Liesje

Absolutely not.  Coke's goal in life is to run away from us, he thinks it's hilarious and the most fun thing ever.  If he gets off and he knows he's not being held back, he is gone.  Absolutely no treat, toy, or game in the world is more precious to him than running apes*** through the neighborhood.  His foster family had the same issues.  We think it's b/c he was tied out or turned out in a yard all day with no interaction so as of yet he still has very little reason to believe people care or are exciting and he's used to being left to do whatever he wants outside.  Indoors he's a pretty good dog.  We do recalls everyday, it's literally the only thing we work on with him, but he just knows when he's off leash.  At home he has to be on a long line b/c we don't have a fence and live less than a mile off the busiest street in the state.  He does his recalls great when he's on the line, but when we take him to larger fenced areas to practice it's total hit or miss, and if a new dog is involved it's total miss.  That's another reason he had time out in the car.  If he's going to be a bully AND pretend no one else exists, he does not get to play, period.

The above statements tells me Coke has no recall because you are not successful with generalizing in different situation.  The recall would be my only focus and everything else you do with Coke can wait.

Also,  "I did pull him off, it took a few minutes to get ahold of his hips (collar grab could have turned out bad)", this tells me you can not interrupt his activity.

Benedict

You're putting words into my mouth that weren't there.  I'm happy to discuss the subject further but this thread is not the place.   

I don't know how else to interpret a statement that make light of a serious situation and then blames the breed and not the owner.  The COME command and being able to interrupt a dog's activity is the exact training that Coke needs.  If it was in place then there would be no thread.

OK, I am mistaken.  You simply misinterpreted that exchange.  Having said that, *I* am interested in a thread about how breed affects behaviour, so I'll start one.   

DPU

Also,  "I did pull him off, it took a few minutes to get ahold of his hips (collar grab could have turned out bad)", this tells me you can not interrupt his activity.

As someone else already pointed out, body blocking would probably work, but since it has been suggested, I haven't been able to try it yet... maybe if you could offer some suggestions...?  If I thought I was doing it perfectly right, I would not have asked for suggestions...

You are suggesting Coke be confined to my home until he has a perfect recall?  If so, how does one test the recall to ensure that it is perfect?  Coke has never played off lead with Justin before and that was his first class in that particular field.  I didn't really expect him to recall.

I've worked at one of the most popular daycares in my area, 40+ hours a week for the last two years, managing a group of between 20-30 dogs. (Enough experience? Or am I too young to have experience? Hmm...) Occasionally, a dog who plays PHENOMENALLY in a group will bully one particular dog or type of dog. *It happens*. Not all dogs can play nicely, just like not all *people* can play nicely, apparently.

And that's all I have to say about that.

Liesje

DPU

Also,  "I did pull him off, it took a few minutes to get ahold of his hips (collar grab could have turned out bad)", this tells me you can not interrupt his activity.

As someone else already pointed out, body blocking would probably work, but since it has been suggested, I haven't been able to try it yet... maybe if you could offer some suggestions...?  If I thought I was doing it perfectly right, I would not have asked for suggestions...

You are suggesting Coke be confined to my home until he has a perfect recall? 

 

This is the bit I don't get... how are you supposed to proof Coke's recall around other dogs by practising at home with no "other dogs"?

Oh yes thats right - you have a totally rubbish relationship with your dog.  If you just patched that up everything else would fall into place and Coke would automatically generalise when put into the highly testing situation.  I get it now.

Yeah total rubbish....as you can see he CLEARLY hates DH's guts and wants absolutely nothing to do with us...

http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=VBqwFMUQOv0
 

sl2crmeg

*It happens*. Not all dogs can play nicely, just like not all *people* can play nicely, apparently.

This was worthy of being repeated. 

Chuffy

This is the bit I don't get... how are you supposed to proof Coke's recall around other dogs by practising at home with no "other dogs"?

Oh, I guess the concept of progressive training, generalizing, and focus is totally missed by this crowd.  Proof the dog with just the human present, proof the dog with another residence dog present, proof the dog in the morning, proof the dog at night, proof the dog when it rains, proof the dog in the next door neighbor's yard, proof, proof the dog with one strange dog...get the idea.  If any fail go back to the last situation that worked because that one was not truly proofed. 

I am starting to truly understand now why recall is such a problem for this group.  Its more fun to spend your time training a dog for things that the dog easily gets. 

DPU

Chuffy

This is the bit I don't get... how are you supposed to proof Coke's recall around other dogs by practising at home with no "other dogs"?

Oh, I guess the concept of progressive training, generalizing, and focus is totally missed by this crowd.  Proof the dog with just the human present, proof the dog with another residence dog present, proof the dog in the morning, proof the dog at night, proof the dog when it rains, proof the dog in the next door neighbor's yard, proof, proof the dog with one strange dog...get the idea.  If any fail go back to the last situation that worked because that one was not truly proofed. 

So, if the dogs recalls in the home, recalls in the yard, recalls in the yard with Kenya present, recalls in the park, recalls in the park with Kenya present, recalls in the park with Prudence and Kenya present, and recalls in the petstore with lots of things present....how is going to the training club NOT the next logical step?  And since he failed that step, he went back to the yard and did fine, so we went back to the petstore and he did fine, I'm finishing my lunch and then we are walking to a local (unfenced) church yard to practice, Monday we go back to the club...

Dog_ma

And you hafta have a sense of humor when your dog does!

well ain't tht the truth

Lies it took stinkin' ages to get a good recall with Bugsy - I worked and worked and worked.  Had to change the command, he isn't food driven so the roast beef didn't override a good romp, and tried everything I could.  At first  was really down about it because I thought my God I can't even get this dog to want to come back to me.

Then I realized that he wanted to come back - just after he was done with what he was doing.  And we have had him since he as about 3 - 3.5 mos old.

I realized last year that it was better than I thought it was when he and a new found friend took a romp from the B&B we were staying at.  DH watched them go and then yelled to me that they were off - I stifled my urge to kill DH and shouted at the top of my lungs my command (if DH says this Bugs doesn't return they had to work on their own thing) and we saw the tall grass stop moving and then it started moving towards us.  My boy was hurtling back at warp speed which brought his new buddy back too.  I was downright amazed.

He still has his moments though and there is always a hesitation.  Wheels spinning should I or shouldn't I?

In class he pulled on his leash like an untrained wild dog when we entered for the first few weeks, and when we would go to work outside and .....  But he got it.  And interestingly is recall outside with the others doing their thing was stunning.  I am sure the instructor was considering tossing our butts out and then saw that once he decided to work he was way advanced of the others.

Bugsy will be 3 in early September.  Coke is still a puppy. I really saw an improvement after 2.5.

As for the bullying, its difficult.  Bugsy's girlfriend a GR is terribly submissive (she and B grew up together and she is fine with him now but they had to work it out) and it is very difficult for her with other dogs.  She trusts B totally now and they play full on but add another dog and she rolls instantly and has been harassed.  Justin's owners need to work on his confidence as much as you need to learn how to redirect Coke or help him to learn to play with softer dogs, which I know you will do. 

As others have said sometimes dogs just don't click and are best left separate.  Bugsy gets along with dogs of all sizes, ages, breeds, sex etc but one incident stills boggles our minds.  Must be nearly a year ago we (DH, Bugsy & I) were walking on a trail with a friend and his welsh terrier (who is extrremely social like Bugsy).  Someone had a boxer in front of us and this boxer kept turning around and staring at us.  This happened a bunch of times and then it did it again and Bugsy went off (his version) he gave the meanest grrrr woof he has ever done and lunged.  I had the leash and was taken completely off guard.  i corrected him and we walked on - the boxer never turned around again and that was that.  We were a good 30 yds apart and I am so glad it wasn't closer.  That is the ONLY time he has barked at a dog or with another dog around.  Whatever was going on that dog and Bugsy would've had a scrap were they closer.  It was so out of character for Bugsy, it is still something we discuss.  To me it is a stark example of the fact that we aren't dogs so we don't get all that they communicate and like Meg said some dogs aren't ever going to get along.  It would be interesting to let him meet another male golden and see how that goes.

Good luck, keep trying, and I assure you he will get it.