Suggestions for Coke ** NILIF people look at pg 5 **

Liesje

....how is going to the training club NOT the next logical step?  And since he failed that step, he went back to the yard and did fine, so we went back to the petstore and he did fine, today we go back to the park, Monday we go back to the club...

If he failed at the training club then it was too much and you have to go back to last successful recall, proof that and then create a variation that works toward the training club.

Either I am getting confused or you are presenting Coke in a different ways every time.  I just posted what you said from a previous post and you said Coke has a great recall in his own backyard and on a drag line.  When the setting changes and he is not a drag line, he bolts.  So how could you have accomplished all those recalls in different setting, especially at Petsmart where all dogs are required to be leashed.

Thanks Karen.  I've always thought Buggsy and Coke would have a blast together.

I e-mailed my trainer and the club owner to see if we can do some "recall clinics" at the club where we get together with the dogs and practice...let the dogs play a little, and work on being able to call them off (body blocking and/or using long lines).  That's the main goal, I think, and something I can't simply practice at home because I *can* already call off Coke and Kenya. 

CassidysMom, I did what you said re. the food plate and NILIF.  Instead of just having him wait a few minutes, I had him sit-stay and I set it down 10 feet away, then had him maintain eye contact as I walked back to him.  Since it was a mac 'n cheese bowl he REALLY wanted it and he did exactly what I asked. 

DPU

Either I am getting confused or you are presenting Coke in a different ways every time.  I just posted what you said from a previous post and you said Coke has a great recall in his own backyard and on a drag line.  When the setting changes and he is not a drag line, he bolts.  So how could you have accomplished all those recalls in different setting, especially at Petsmart where all dogs are required to be leashed.

He is leashed in the petstore but we don't allow tight leads and by "recall" in that situation it's more of a "leave it and get back to me".  When we first got him he would pull really hard to go sniff other dogs and people or get the treats on the shelves, but now he is being very attentive and will turn back to us when we call or say "uh oh" when he starts to pull away.  At the parks, it is fenced so he is not on lead or on a drag line (though we started on a drag line so we could correct him and back him up if he ignored the command, now he is off the line).  This is where we go with Kenya or we have other dogs come meet us there.  If he gets really excited in our yard (again, when we have other dogs/people over) he has bolted.  Luckily he has not done it or tried in the past few months except the times that our FIL walked out leaving two doors wide open.  Even my CAT got out those times.  DH was the one to get Coke, I'm not sure what he had to do.  We don't like to give him opportunities to fail a recall around home because we live in such a busy area, it's just not worth it to try.  That's why we take him to the fenced parks and stores for practice and why we prefer to meet with other dogs there, not in our yard.  Beyond that, there's really not many choices.  This place is very dog UNfriendly.  We take him to the college campus where I work but the dogs are required to be leashed so again he has to be on the drag line.  Other than that, the places we already go are pretty much our choices.

Liesje,

I did watch the video and observed one thing.....you guys are standing in one spot and expect Coke to perform the same every single time....I can see you guys are trying to be excited....but, ultimately, it's the same every time..........as I said, once you get a whistle and some super good treats or a super fav toy( this is how I trained many of my dogs), run from Coke.....make it a challenge for him and fun......he has to understand that you guys are more of a challenge and fun than the animal or neighborhood he wants to roam in.......I did this with Huskies.....believe me, it can be done......

snownose

Liesje,

I did watch the video and observed one thing.....you guys are standing in one spot and expect Coke to perform the same every single time....I can see you guys are trying to be excited....but, ultimately, it's the same every time..........as I said, once you get a whistle and some super good treats or a super fav toy( this is how I trained many of my dogs), run from Coke.....make it a challenge for him and fun......he has to understand that you guys are more of a challenge and fun than the animal or neighborhood he wants to roam in.......I did this with Huskies.....believe me, it can be done......

Yeah, I know.  We made that vid for a friend that asked what "the recall game" was.

I took Coke to the church, let him drag a long line that I did not hold (I would have let him off, but the police like to sit there and watch the 4-way stop and we have a leash law).  At first, he just followed me around trying to get treats.  I found something to throw and worked with that, then he saw kids swimming in their backyard and that was really interesting to him so we worked with that.  A few times I let him wander out of sight and called him back.  Really, he did so much better than I've seen.  I did take a vid, I'll have to see if it's worth uploading since I was holding the cam and had Coke by myself. 

I'm wondering if the way he interacts with DH is part of the problem.  Now that I have been working with him just by myself, I can see instant improvements.  He's behaving much more like Kenya than how he usually behaves when DH is with us and he is working Coke.  DH likes to get Coke really excited, they chase each other around, DH flails his arms and Coke leaps up at him, that sort of thing.  I wonder if doing those things just get him too worked up and that's why he just wants to bolt and play a game of "catch me if you can".  Maybe Coke sees DH as a playmate, not the leader.  I guess this makes sense since DH has often complained to me about Coke's leash manners, but when I walk him by myself with Kenya, he stays on my left on the sidewalk.  I don't know what I'm doing differently, maybe being more proactive?  I redirect Coke as he begins to forge whereas I see DH trying to correct him or call him back after he's lost Coke's attention. 

Liesje

I'm wondering if the way he interacts with DH is part of the problem.  Now that I have been working with him just by myself, I can see instant improvements.  He's behaving much more like Kenya than how he usually behaves when DH is with us and he is working Coke.  DH likes to get Coke really excited, they chase each other around, DH flails his arms and Coke leaps up at him, that sort of thing.  I wonder if doing those things just get him too worked up and that's why he just wants to bolt and play a game of "catch me if you can".  Maybe Coke sees DH as a playmate, not the leader.  I guess this makes sense since DH has often complained to me about Coke's leash manners, but when I walk him by myself with Kenya, he stays on my left on the sidewalk.  I don't know what I'm doing differently, maybe being more proactive?  I redirect Coke as he begins to forge whereas I see DH trying to correct him or call him back after he's lost Coke's attention. 

Bingo.

You have just solved the problem. DH likes to get him amped up when what you need is focus and more calm.

At first, I wasn't sure of your motivation for the dogs. Was it all that important to do agility, ScH, etc.? Was Coke really suited for that or was he more destined to be a couch potato? Thoughts and questions I mainly had in private. I had some doubts but reading your replies assuaged my misgivings. And you have done so with even temperment. Well done.

And the thread has twisted to take apart your every word and accuse you of, at the least, not knowing what you are doing, to being an egocentric owner, a tough price to pay for simply asking for some suggestions on how to refine the recall in play at the agility class (a particular circumstance).

But back to the solution, sort of. Shadow's previous owners would wrestle with him for play. And Shadow can get excited about that. And FWIW, we don't all proof recalls in the exact same sequence. We work on what we can, when we can. And yes, it is a danged if you do, danged if you don't idea (which I find to be unmanagable) to brow beat you for not socializing your dog and browbeat you for taking them out in public without someone else's idea of training in place. Evidently, it's been "crap on Liese Day". You must get DH on the same page as you or you will continue to have this problem. And, if he can't exhibit the right timing for reinforcement, he certainly shoudn't be trying to correct or punish because he will get it wrong and the end result is that Coke will learn to run away even more, to avoid the punishment. One should never, ever punish for recall. Even if Coke did something wrong, he would have to punish for that offense at the time at the place, not after Coke has recalled. Punishment teaches a dog to avoid something or avoid a behavior. Example, I used negative punishment to curb mouthing. So, Shadow avoids mouthing to avoid the loss of attention, ergo he avoids the mouthing behavior preemptively.

The problem has not been you, or Coke, it has been your DH (sorry to crap on him, if it seems that way). You may have a challenge training DH in how to train.

And you don't need any approval from any of us to get another dog. Good luck and God's speed. All I would ask is that you evaluate what each dog is good at and enjoys and then, be happy with that. Some dogs require a whirlwind of activity to be satisfied. Others just need a sweet spot under an A/C vent.

ron2

And the thread has twisted to take apart your every word and accuse you of, at the least, not knowing what you are doing, to being an egocentric owner, a tough price to pay for simply asking for some suggestions on how to refine the recall in play at the agility class (a particular circumstance).

 

I agree, I haven't read all the posts yet since I was gone for a few hours today, but I saw several people arguing over points they either completely exaggerated or totally assumed. And also some clear baiting, the motivation for which I can only guess. It would be really nice if everyone would either offer helpful suggestions (and that can definitely include constructive criticism) or opt out of a thread entirely rather than use it as an opportunity to exhort their own superiority. JMHO.
 

Ron, we don't need to feel bad for examining DH.  He will be the first to admit, he often learns by mistake, lol.  For example, he lost his second wedding ring now and we have been married 1.5 yrs....I always bugged him about not putting on his seat belt and finally I stopped, sure enough he got a ticket for not wearing it....I also bugged him about messing with his cell phone in the car, and one night he totally drove off the road (over a curb onto the grass) and I said "told you so!"  I think with Coke we are seeing the same sort of thing.  It doesn't really click until he sees it NOT work first, if that makes sense.  Not how I do things at all, but that's just who he is, I can't change that.  In fact, if we tried to do everything with the same techniques we'd probably always be at odds.  Sometimes I see him working with Coke and his intentions are in the right spot, but I think "I can do that better", but I don't always want to butt in.  Coke is a very happy, resilient dog.  He's not really a dog that requires a ton of structure, so I think even though he can be hyper and stubborn, he's a good dog for DH to make mistakes with.  At the end of the day, all Coke wants is a loooong game of fetch and then some snuggles on the couch.  But just because he is more suited doing "pet" activities does not mean we are absolved from teaching solid leash manners and the recall.  Again, I couldn't care less if he never catches on to agility, but doing the obstacles was not the problem.  If he showed fear, or boredom, etc, I would have quit the class.  The problems we encountered Monday night would have happened regardless of what type of training we were doing or even if we just went out to let the dogs play.  We have some equipment in the yard and yesterday he was trying some jumps and chasing Kenya through the tunnel, so I think I will stick with it for now, even if it's just a means of working on the distractions.  Similarly, Kenya completed pet therapy training to work on broadening her socialization, but she's not an actual therapy dog.

Liesje

I let Kenya and Justin play but then they'd run past Coke, he'd lunge on the lead and get even more frustrated.  In the past he has gotten a little frustrated when on lead and constantly being pulled back.  I wouldn't call him reactive, at least not yet, but I try to avoid letting other dogs play and forcing him to be held back.  He wouldn't chill out so I put him in the car. 

He sounds a lot like Keefer - easily aroused, with a low tolerance for frustration. Keefer can be reactive on leash, but not out of fear - he and his ridiculous prey drive get all worked up and he gets frustrated that he can't go run around and do what he wants, and he pulls and gets yippy. This is where I think Control Unleashed would be so helpful for you. It might be good for Kenya too - it's not just for reactive dogs, its good for dogs that get stressed or are just sniffy and distracted, and a terrific foundation for raising puppies.

Today we took the dogs to the brewpub for lunch after the Farmer's Market. They aren't allowed in the market so they stayed in the car, but at the pub we ate outside, with them leashed to the outside of a low wrought iron fence next to our table. They were wonderful - calm and relaxed, and they ignored the people walking by unless they stopped and wanted to meet them, and then D & K would get up and greet them. Afterwards we went to the car wash, and I sat outside with them while Tom went in to pay. While we were waiting for them to finish the car I asked Tom if he thought they were more relaxed than usual, and he also noticed a difference. That's after just a few days working on the Relaxation Protocol at home.

Coke may also not have great doggy social skills. He and Kenya are fine because they've worked out their relationship, but with new dogs he may initiate play in an inappropriate way and then isn't recognizing the other dog's signals that he's uncomfortable and doesn't want to play anymore. Those social skills are something they learn from their littermates, and also during that critical early socialization period. Obviously, socialization is ongoing, and it appears that you're doing everything right as far as that goes, but if he missed out when he was young, and the previous owner and foster home didn't do much to make up for it, he's starting out at a deficit and you have to play catch up.

I would personally step in and put a stop to it, even if the other dog WERE correcting him for it. I'm responsible for the behavior of my dogs, and if they're doing something I don't like, I'll let them know. Play nice, or playtime is over. What you don't want to happen is for the other dog to correct him, and have him not back down, and then you've got an escalating situation on your hands, a potential fight. I'd rather be proactive and stop things before it gets to that point. If it's clearly mutual, where both dogs are having fun and taking turns picking on each other (that's how my dogs play!), with nobody looking uncomfortable and trying to get away, then I'd let them work it out without interference.

 

Chuffy

I'd agree with corvus in that I don't think it has much to do with status... I think it has everything to do with Coke just not having the same grounding in dog-manners that some dogs have.  I think the lack of socialisation is probably a factor and the fact that he got so excited/frustrated and had trouble containing himself.

 I totally agree!!!!
 

Dog_ma

With bullying dogs, the best approach is to stop the behavior when it gets over the top. Bullying = no play. The key is to not remove the dog entirely, or they won't make the connection as well. For milder bullying, body blocks work well. They send a message. I do get in between the dog with the issue and whatever dog is being bothered. I do this for  Eko as well as with other dogs.

If body blocking by itself is too mild, I add verbal corrections with the body block. If that isn't getting through, I *will* grab the collar of the obnoxious dog and make it pause for a short time. If the dog were mine, time outs would probably be longer, but I'm not going to hold onto another person's dog unless a real fight is imminent.  In those rare cases I take the dog to the owner.

If Coke were mine, I would let him play with all sorts of dogs. When he crosses the line, grab him and give him 30 sec to 1 minute time out. The motivation is that he wants to play. If you have to grab him by the scruff, do it. He'll live! And he'll learn that certain behaviors mean play time stops. Other behaviors mean play time continues. The more time this happens in a play session, the more exposures he has to the lesson. And the faster he'll get it. You can also praise when he's playing well with dogs he wants to dominate.

I agree, it's just like teaching puppies not to bite. Frequent brief timeouts, immediately after the infraction, are more effective than just removing them from the situation for the day, which may not create the same association between action and consequence. Maybe a couple of chances, a three strikes you're out kind of thing, and if he still won't play nice, then he's done, it's over.

 

Liesje

Sometimes I see him working with Coke and his intentions are in the right spot, but I think "I can do that better", but I don't always want to butt in. 

Here's a contretemp. I think you do know better than he does, even if it is socially awkward. Doubly so because he is your spouse. Heinlein once said that manners are more important in a marriage than they are in a public setting. But there's also a point where a wrong thing must be stopped. For example, you don't allow aggression, ever. Regardless if someone else thought you were stifling prey drive or whathaveyou drive. The cost is too great to not do something. In some things like this, it could be a case of where you are right, despite your misgivings about butting in. My old friend Lee had a "delicate" way of saying it. "Anything worth doing is worth doing right. If you can't do it right, get the hell out of the way so that the person who can do it right can get in there and do it right." Well, okay, I softened it up a bit. But you get the gist.

And we all learn some things the hard way, too, and I am no exception.

Dog_ma

Her only real fault is in being honest that her dogs aren't perfect and that she's open to new ideas.

And don't you hate it when that happens? Pshew, a person who admits she doesn't know everything, but is motivated and wants to learn - gosh, let's all beat her up. 'Cause that's, you know, so helpful.

Dog_ma

All Coke needs in playtime is boundaries. It is very simple. Bonita put it succinctly, while I blah blah on. He is more likely to bully youngish males who have medium to high energy and are slightly on the submissive side.  Teach him that behavior means the fun pauses. Simple. And FTR, the process of teaching that IS leadership.

Bravo!!!! 

Benedict

You're putting words into my mouth that weren't there. 

There's a lot of that going on in this thread.