Advice on Dog-Dog Aggression

welcome to teh forum!!

there will probably be lots of good avice here soon, but till then, i will attempt to give my 2 cents...

first, socialization with other dogs is important, and from what i am reading into your posts (i could be totally wrong) it seems he hasnt been getting any time to interact with dogs with you so far. so this agression could very have started with frustration. again, it's hard to say. dont beat yourself up over it though. there's ways to reduce dog agression.

first off you should start teaching the "watch me" command. start teaching it at home first. you can start off by holding a treat to your face in order to lure the dog to look at you. try solidifying it at home. then slowly start incorporating the command on walks. first start when there arent other dogs around. when he's got that down, start giving him the command as soon as he sees another dog (even from afar). in this period of time try your best to avoid getting close enough to other dogs to trigger this behaviour. it might be hard, depending on the situation. your goal is to slooooooooowwwwwllllyyyy(!!!!) get your dog used to being cloe to other dogs and NOT act out. be kind and be persistant!

also, i would forget that leader stuff you are talking about! a lot of those techniques are so old school and i really think there's no need for them. instead google NILIF. it means "nothing in life is free". it is not so much a training technique but a way of life with MANY of our dogs here on the forum. making sure your dog doesn walk ahead of you, or doesnt get on the furniture at all, IMO doesnt do ANYTHING at all...instead think of him a bit as a child. when he behaves well, and obeys commands he is allowed privilages like getting on the furniture with you. it is just his way of wanting to be with you, possibly. the way you are feeding seems fine. although you are feeding only once a day? it doesnt seem to be enough for a small dog.... but i could be wrong... nothing wrong with feeding more often, but the rest sounds fine...

also, they say frozen liver is a high reward treat, although i've never used it. my dog is obsessed with food to the point, that the brain just switches off when she get's food. lol..

also: can you describe your dog's body language when he encounters other dogs, in more detail? it can tell you alot about the "reason" for this behaviour.... with small dogs it can often just be fear based....

jason (in my signature) is dog agressive as well, and in his case it IS fear based. i really understand your pain. :)

feel free to ask more... this place is a great place to get LOTS of info on dog related things!

janetmichel3009

i would forget that leader stuff you are talking about!

I wouldnt, the dogs need guidance, they were not born knowing and a leader can teach them right from wrong, the dog is aggressive but has not been told that is not allowed, a dog with a leader will look at the human first before reacting to know how to handle any situation instead of the dog reacting on his own

I taught my Alaskan Malamute to stop chasing rabbits by doing it that way and Malamutes have high prey drive

A "watch me" command does not teach the dog that being aggressive is wrong, does not take the aggressive feeling away

janetmichel3009

instead think of him a bit as a child.

humanization of pets is never a good idea, human psychology and dog psychology are 2 different things 

if you read my post entirely you would see i am not contradicting what you believe in the 2 quotes.....

agression have different reasons, and without knowing the "type" of agression it is impossible to know the right course of action. which is why i asked more about the dog's body language. if it is fear based agression simply correcting the dog for the behaviour (whether it is verbally or physically) doesnt help, in fact will probably make it worse, because it will add to the dogs anxiety.

"watch me" is a simple method of redirecting the dog's actions. depending on what the reason for the agression is, it might not "cure" the agression, but is at least a way to cope.... if the agression is based on anxiety it might very well be a "cure" in the long run, since the dog will learn to look to you for guidance. knowing *what* to do in a scary situation (to the dog) gives the dog confidence. sometimes that is all that is needed.

what would *YOU* suggest?

sounds almost more like leash reactivity than dog aggression. What's he like around other dogs when NOT leashed, or is this something you've not explored yet?

Was he neutered late in life...like at the pound?

OP here. Thanks for the quick responses.

A little more background:
A couples days after adopting Roger, we took him the Vet for a checkup. While we were waiting, he started a fight(s) with a German Shepard. As we were leaving, we ran into two of the shelter workers who mentioned to us that he hates big dogs.

On our walks, we almost never run into other leashed dogs walking. We pass chained dogs in their own yards. A couple days ago, we finally come across a leashed English Terrier (I think ~ it was about his size) so I started to walk in their direction so we would pass them (I was worried I was not socializing him). We stepped off the path three feet while passing them and everything was fine until the other dog barked, and that is when the ‘possessed’ typed episode started. Since then, there has been 3 other episodes (one each day since).

janetmichel3009

first off you should start teaching the "watch me" command. the way you are feeding seems fine. although you are feeding only once a day? it doesnt seem to be enough for a small dog.... but i could be wrong... nothing wrong with feeding more often, but the rest sounds fine...also, they say frozen liver is a high reward treat, also: can you describe your dog's body language when he encounters other dogs, in more detail? it can tell you alot about the "reason" for this behaviour.... with small dogs it can often just be fear based....

I will start teaching him the “watch me” command. I’ve been trying to get close enough to dogs and then feed him a piece of chicken, adding that with the watch me makes sense. When he goes into these episodes, I’m try to get his attention with a piece of chicken and not get dragged (he’s a strong little guy). When we would come across chained dogs, I would just say “we’re walking” and keep walking like it was no big deal. We used to leave his bowl filled with dry food all day, and give him some canned in the morning. Since these episodes, we’ve been just putting his bowl out in the morning, maybe I should do it twice a day.

rwbeagles

sounds almost more like leash reactivity than dog aggression. What's he like around other dogs when NOT leashed, or is this something you've not explored yet?
Was he neutered late in life...like at the pound?

He was neutered at the pound; it was about a month ago (maybe 6 weeks). I’m scared to take him to a dog park so he has not been around other dogs unleashed. I do not think he was walked, the leash seems new to him. I know his owners had a fenced in yard. He has bitten my father (co-owner, he lives with me) twice when trying to take off his leash.

lastadtfan

I adopted a five year-old male Lhasa-Poo (Roger) from an animal shelter about 2 weeks ago.

Ahh the magic words.... "about 2 weeks ago".  It's extremely common for a dog to SEEM to settle in well for the first 2 or 3 weeks or so... some dogs even the first couple of months.... it's like a honeymoon period.  It's almost like they are a bit shell shocked at first from the big change and then as they get over that the issues start to surface. 

lastadtfan

I’ve started bringing chicken with us on our walks and distracting him when a dog is near, of course this only works when I see the dog first; which is not always possible.

This is a bit like what I did with my dog and yeah, you DO have to see the other dog early on, before you get close enough that your own dog starts freaking out.  It takes time and patience and eyes like a hawk, but it does work.

lastadtfan

To help him feel more secure, I’ve also beefed-up my attempts to show him I’m the leader, totally by the book. He’s no longer allowed in my bed or the couch, I feed him once a day and then take-away his food dish, I do not let him jump up on me, or walk in front of me. You know the drill.

I think it's a good idea for you to walk in front, because that will usually place you between your dog and any other dogs.  Placing yourself between him and anything that stresses him out will help him to increase his confidence in you. 

I think you are rigt, he is anxious and stressed and seeing other dogs is frying his little head.  He has "stress hormones" charging round his little body making him even more jumpy and nervous, making it hard for him to listen to you and learn a  new response.  So, let him "heal".  Keep him away from other dogs for a little while.  Just a week or so.  Suspend all your walks and let him settle in more at home and gain confidence in you.  Do some basic training with him, hand feed his meals, do some bonding

Once he has got a couple of simple cues (eg Sit) then implement NILIF (Nothing in life is free) and make him "work" for the good things in life, to get him into the habit of a) listening to you and b) looking to you for things he wants.

espencer

I wouldnt, the dogs need guidance, they were not born knowing and a leader can teach them right from wrong

Dogs DO need guidance, and humans are adequately placed to give it as this is a world created by us for us.  But "leadership" is an abstract concept, and a human one.   It doesn't mean all that much to a dog.  If walking through doors first and all that gubbins helps the HUMAN to be in the right frame of mind to maintain authority over the dog then, well, no harm done.  It's more about promoting yourself than demoting the dog.  Of late I find I can "promote myself" without needing any of those symbolic gimmicks to convince me I'm leader so that the dog will be likewise convinced.

espencer

A "watch me" command does not teach the dog that being aggressive is wrong, does not take the aggressive feeling away

If the dog simply needs guidance, then yes it WILL take the aggression away - because the dog will check in with the human rather than acting on his own, just as you said   I had a "leash-reactive dog" and this is how I sorted it out.  As jm said, there are many different kinds of aggression and teaching a dog to stop chasing rabbits is different than teaching him not to lunge at other dogs when on lead.  There are totally different things at the root of each problem.

espencer

human psychology and dog psychology are 2 different things 

There is no such thing as either   As of yet, there is still just one field called Psychology.  Carry on.   

 1. Get the book "Click to Calm".  Regardless whether your dog is aggressive or just reactive, that protocol will help you gain and keep his attention, and avoid the situations you describe.

2. It takes a dog about 2-3 months to settle in post-rescue.  Don't assume anything to be written in stone about his temperament until at least then.

3. Get a trainer or behaviorist to assess his safety with other dogs off leash.  Oddly, enough, this is done on leash, but with the leash dragging.  It's the tightness of the leash that usually disconcerts a fearful dog, making it feel trapped and more fearful.  Hence, the best defense is a good offense.  With truly aggressive dogs, they will be aggressive either way, not just when the leash is on.  Some rather friendly dogs will bark and lunge on leash out of frustration to reach the other dog, and are fine off leash. 

4. Try not to tighten the leash and hold her back.  When you can't spot the other dog first, and she gets like this, turn and go the other way, and reward your dog with a tiny treat for catching up to you. If she can eat, continue to feed her till the "scary thing" goes away, then close the "restaurant".

this is classic leash-reactivity. It has nothing to do with "leadership", or "lack of guidance" or even aggression. It's usually based in fear and frustration- dog is trapped on that leash and he knows it. Best way to get those scary strange dogs to leave him alone is to put up a big agressive front- scare them away before they get me.

Click to calm, the book previously mentioned, is what you need.

mudpuppy

It's usually based in fear and frustration

Ok lets use your example, if you have a leader to follow and knows that will protect you in every single situation then you as dog wont have nothing to fear, "scary strange dogs will be handle by my leader so there is nothing to be worried about", just like going thru a bad neighborhood by yourself or going along with a cop, how would you feel more secured?, if you see a suspicious person coming at you, would you go ahead and confront him by yourself or would you let the cop to go ahead first?

There is a lot of undersocialized dogs in my area, my dog looks at me first to see how we should react towards them, i ignore them therefore he does, when there is one off leash coming towards us growling my dog does not take the initiative, i do, i put him behind me and he waits for me to handle the situation, he does not feel that he needs to protect me/us because he knows i am capable enough to do it myself and that has to do with leadership, leadership that tells him to not to do anything unless i tell him to

It has to do with lack of guidance because the dog does not know that getting aggressive towards another dog is not allowed

Your advice is using a clicker to calm the dog down, isnt the clicker actually guiding the dog towards what you want him to do? how this has nothing to do with "lack of guidance" then? the need for survival is greater that a couple pieces of cheese in your stomach, sure have the dog eating while the growling dog off leash is coming closer, i'm sure the dog will rather to eat than expose himself for a bite

Chuffy

If walking through doors first and all that gubbins helps the HUMAN to be in the right frame of mind to maintain authority over the dog then, well, no harm done.  It's more about promoting yourself than demoting the dog.  Of late I find I can "promote myself" without needing any of those symbolic gimmicks to convince me I'm leader so that the dog will be likewise convinced.

What are you talking about? Is clicker training only about how to teach your dog how to roll over?

Chuffy

teaching a dog to stop chasing rabbits is different than teaching him not to lunge at other dogs when on lead.

Would not you use the "leave it" command for both?  sure you can use "watch me" instead but i also could use another technique too, i'm NOT saying its the same behavior, i am saying that i use the same technique for both situations

Chuffy

There is no such thing as either   As of yet, there is still just one field called Psychology.

Off topic 

Ok lets use your example, if you have a leader to follow and knows that will protect you in every single situation then you as dog wont have nothing to fear, "scary strange dogs will be handle by my leader so there is nothing to be worried about",

Dogs have been bred for centuries to protect people and people's property, not the other way around. Dogs have no concept of the very human abstract notion of "leadership". If your dog looks to you to see whether you want him to attack the other dog or not all that means is a) your dog is not leash-reactive, and b) you taught the dog to act that way using some type of operant conditioning.

I consider leash "reactivity" (what a cop-out word this is for dogs behaving badly!) to definately be both a leadership and a classical conditioning issue, rather than a strictly operant conditioning issue.

mudpuppy

Dogs have been bred for centuries to protect people and people's property, not the other way around.

Why to give advice then? the dog its doing what he was bred for, doesnt he?