Advice on Dog-Dog Aggression

Angelique

I consider leash "reactivity" (what a cop-out word this is for dogs behaving badly!) to definately be both a leadership and a classical conditioning issue, rather than a strictly operant conditioning issue.

I spoke with an animal behaviorist today who does not consider reactivity to be either.  Her opinion is that reactivity is simply a state of heightened arousal and overstimulation of the sympathetic nervous system and the circulation of cortisol (stress hormones).   The goal is to teach your dog calm, focused behavior even in a stressful environment, and reinforce the behavior when you see it by reading the dog's body language cues.  She believes that neither the anticipation of food treats, nor looking to a human leader for instructions, are consistent with a relaxed state of mind. I plan on scheduling a private session with her in a few weeks and will let you all know what I find out.

jenns

She believes that neither the anticipation of food treats, nor looking to a human leader for instructions, are consistent with a relaxed state of mind.

And nobody said they do, when a dog is already excited/aggressive he wont be thinking about food or looking at the owner anymore, my face is not a drug that will calm his brain down, my job a a leader is to teach him not to get to that point in the first place aka "to teach your dog calm, focused behavior even in a stressful environment", my dog was taught that getting excited when he sees a rabbit is not allowed (let alone being aggressive to another dog), if he does then i will redirect his focus away from the object with a touch, leash, etc.

spiritdogs

 3. Get a trainer or behaviorist to assess his safety with other dogs off leash. 

The dog is reactive toward other dogs on a leash.  The dog fights with other dogs.  The dog bit a human.  Piecemeal fixes like "watch me", distractions, discipline, desensiitizing, etc (on your own) is not what I would do and way too risky.   I agree to get a trainer or behaviorist involved and start setting up structured control situation under professional guidance.  A good way to get started is to sign up for obedience class.  The dog's bite inhibition would have me worried enough that something more serious will happen.  I would always choose to cure the problem over managing the problem.

I spoke with an animal behaviorist today who does not consider reactivity to be either.  Her opinion is that reactivity is simply a state of heightened arousal and overstimulation of the sympathetic nervous system and the circulation of cortisol (stress hormones).   The goal is to teach your dog calm, focused behavior even in a stressful environment, and reinforce the behavior when you see it by reading the dog's body language cues.

I agree with this- the dog is over the top out of his own control and cannot stop his behavior, cannot look to someone for instructions, cannot be "redirected", cannot hear any messages that the behavior is unacceptable. The only cure is gradual desensitization to whatever stimulus sets the dog off. Using food in this context isn't really a reward in the classical clicker-training methods, it's more of a way to induce a calm state. Eating generally induces "calmness" in dogs. And I really think the "leadership" connection is totally off the mark. You can be the strongest leader ever and your dog may still exhibit reactivity, may still develop separation anxiety, may still become dog aggressive, may still develop a thunderstorm phobia, may still be shy and timid and terrified of men in hats.

consider causes of fears and reactivity- many such are caused by a single traumatic incident. A dog attack on a puppy during a critical period. A mis-timed collar correction. You can be doing everything right and have one incident and now you have a dog behavior problem. How does leadership feed into that? it doesn't. Other cases seem to be caused by a feedback loop. Let's say owner is worried and stressed about work tomorrow, dog picks up on it, decides it must be that man approaching and dog, carrying centuries of breeding to protect his humans, gives a low growl. Next time a man approaches the owner is slightly unsure of what the dog will do, this is transmitted to dog, dog growls again. And the feedback loop is set off- within a few weeks the dog may escalate to violent reactive behavior whenever a man approaches. The owner didn't really do anything wrong. The owner may be a fine "leader" under all other circumstances. Doesn't carry over.  

Body language is oh so important to watch when this happens......there is a difference between a purely aggressive dog versus an insecure dog that just puts up a big front......there ia a reason this dog ended up in a shelter...also, hormones are still present after 6 weeks of neuter.....

jenns

Angelique

I consider leash "reactivity" (what a cop-out word this is for dogs behaving badly!) to definately be both a leadership and a classical conditioning issue, rather than a strictly operant conditioning issue.

I spoke with an animal behaviorist today who does not consider reactivity to be either.  Her opinion is that reactivity is simply a state of heightened arousal and overstimulation of the sympathetic nervous system and the circulation of cortisol (stress hormones).   The goal is to teach your dog calm, focused behavior even in a stressful environment, and reinforce the behavior when you see it by reading the dog's body language cues.  She believes that neither the anticipation of food treats, nor looking to a human leader for instructions, are consistent with a relaxed state of mind. I plan on scheduling a private session with her in a few weeks and will let you all know what I find out.

This is why I think gently adjusting the dog's posture affects his behaviour.... right?  And this is why I have said earlier in the thread to suspend the walks and "let the dog heal" - let the hormones that have the dog all fizzed up dissipate and he will be easier to work with

snownose

Body language is oh so important to watch when this happens......there is a difference between a purely aggressive dog versus an insecure dog that just puts up a big front......there ia a reason this dog ended up in a shelter...also, hormones are still present after 6 weeks of neuter.....

More like six MONTHS in an adult dog    So good point.

I don't think the OP has been back since we started arguing about "leadership".  And since the word means different things to each of us then it seems like a pointless argument, especially since nobody is really "wrong".  I agree with mudpuppy... you can do everything right and still have a dog who develops fears, phobias, leash reactivity.... however I'm thinking espence has a point.  It's like diet and exercise.... get them BOTH right and with a bit of luck you'll have a great figure.  But going to the gym 3 times a week isn't going to do much if you still eat chocolate biscuits and donuts by the packet on a daily basis.  "Leadership" (I mean basic rules and guidance... a dog's "how to" manual for life with no cues as such) and "training" (by which I mean the dog performs actions on cue) are like "Diet" and "exercise"... two different things but they both need to go toether side by sde if they are going to work. 

Let me try and address why the bits of chicken isn't working. You're on the right track but you are giving the chicken at the wrong time, possibly. Feeding him good stuff around stranger dogs won't solve the problem and it might reinforce his anxious behavior. "If I see another dog and get anxious, I get something good to eat." No, a dog doesn't think that way but the connection is there. What you want to do is use the chicken as a reward for the right behavior. What is the right behavior? Attention to you, that's one. Or not reacting. That is also an offered behavior or decision. So, it's a matter of timing. If you use a clicker as a marker, you can be much more exact. However, you do have to do some homework, in the associative learning process of having the clicker mean reward. That way, in public, when you dog acts as you want them to, you click right on the spot, which predicts the reward that might take a second to extract from your ziplock bag or whatever. So, you can use the reward and even a marker, even if it's just "good dog" but it is a matter of timing. If you give out the good stuff while the dog is reacting wrongly, then that behavior could be reinforced.

DPU

spiritdogs

 3. Get a trainer or behaviorist to assess his safety with other dogs off leash. 

The dog is reactive toward other dogs on a leash.  The dog fights with other dogs.  The dog bit a human.  Piecemeal fixes like "watch me", distractions, discipline, desensiitizing, etc (on your own) is not what I would do and way too risky.   I agree to get a trainer or behaviorist involved and start setting up structured control situation under professional guidance.  A good way to get started is to sign up for obedience class.  The dog's bite inhibition would have me worried enough that something more serious will happen.  I would always choose to cure the problem over managing the problem.

If the problem is aggression, you are whistling in the wind.  Aggression never truly goes away!  It is part of the dog's defense mechanism, and he will use it if his threshold is reached.  That's why the object of management is to create an environment where the dog never needs to reach the threshold.  Obedience classes will not help a leash reactive dog unless it is structured specifically for that purpose, and can make matters worse.  The reactive dog that ends up in an on leash traditional obedience class is often "corrected" harshly for his fear, and ends up more fearful and anxious, not less.  The place for reactive dogs is the newer "Feisty Fido"  type classes (after the book of the same name by Patricia McConnell).  Sometimes, they are known as "growlies" classes, and are done as seminars or as class.  We run a seminar here, since the hall is not large enough for the class (the larger facilities use big halls or parking lots - even the owners' cars, so that the dogs can be managed far away from one another at first - read "Scaredy Dog" and you'll see why).  I call my version "Grrruff Around the Edges".  One of my reactive students (Malamute mix) now plays in play groups with other dogs, walks nicely on leash in the neighborhood, and meets strangers like a gentleman.  Had his owner punished his fear, he would probably have bitten and been PTS by now.

ron2

Let me try and address why the bits of chicken isn't working. You're on the right track but you are giving the chicken at the wrong time, possibly. Feeding him good stuff around stranger dogs won't solve the problem and it might reinforce his anxious behavior. "If I see another dog and get anxious, I get something good to eat." No, a dog doesn't think that way but the connection is there. What you want to do is use the chicken as a reward for the right behavior. What is the right behavior? Attention to you, that's one. Or not reacting. That is also an offered behavior or decision. So, it's a matter of timing. If you use a clicker as a marker, you can be much more exact. However, you do have to do some homework, in the associative learning process of having the clicker mean reward. That way, in public, when you dog acts as you want them to, you click right on the spot, which predicts the reward that might take a second to extract from your ziplock bag or whatever. So, you can use the reward and even a marker, even if it's just "good dog" but it is a matter of timing. If you give out the good stuff while the dog is reacting wrongly, then that behavior could be reinforced.

 

Here's what I do to create a different emotional response to a scary stimulus.  I use "open bar, closed bar".  When the scary thing appears, I feed my dog continuously (you need to be far enough away that the dog will eat, so quickly back up if you have to, even if you think you are too far to make a difference).  The very second that the scary thing disappears, so does the chicken.  If you do that long enough, the scary thing becomes less scary.  Why?  Because it predicts chicken.

spiritdogs

If the problem is aggression, you are whistling in the wind.  Aggression never truly goes away!  It is part of the dog's defense mechanism, and he will use it if his threshold is reached.  That's why the object of management is to create an environment where the dog never needs to reach the threshold.  Obedience classes will not help a leash reactive dog unless it is structured specifically for that purpose, and can make matters worse. 

I agree that agression never truly goes away and it shouldn't because of the survival need.  The idea of using Classical & Counterconditioning, desenstizing, confidence building tecniques, and Constructional Aggression Treatment is to change the threshold.  C&CC is slow and needs long term environment management but what I have seen of CAT, it is faster and seems to be permanent if the treatment is done according to protocal.  I have had great success with aggressive fosters just by having them live with my stable pack which also includes rehabbed fosters.  Polly, Pags, Lady, Tessa, etc all came here because they could not get along with other dogs.  It was a start to changing that threshold.  I never settle for managing the environement, way way way too risky. 

Many dog owners don't know how to get connected with the right specialty behaviorist/trainer.  You can't just look up "growlies" classes for dogs in the phone book.  There has to be a starting point and contacting a basic obedience instructor is it.  The instructor should quickly assess what is needed and may make recommendations, either private session, a controlled group session, or provide a referral. 

spiritdogs

Here's what I do to create a different emotional response to a scary stimulus.  I use "open bar, closed bar".  When the scary thing appears, I feed my dog continuously (you need to be far enough away that the dog will eat, so quickly back up if you have to, even if you think you are too far to make a difference).  The very second that the scary thing disappears, so does the chicken.  If you do that long enough, the scary thing becomes less scary.  Why?  Because it predicts chicken.

I used this technique with Kenya last week when we did a session of guns firing.  The gun person started out very far away using a softer gun.  I fed a big chunk of yummy food as the gun fired.  After just a few minutes of this, she was hearing the gun and looking for the treat.  After a little while, we walked within 10 feet of the man firing the louder gun and she did not flinch.  Now she had never been exposed to a gun before, but had the Big Bad Scary Incident (like mudpuppy mentioned) when she was with her previous family.  Since the gun was a new thing, we accomplished the desensitization and associating loud gun with yummy treat in only one session, but for other things it might take some time.  If done right, I think it really does work.  I guess the trick is to treat for the noise/object, not too late for the dog's reaction. 

We did something similar for using an umbrella as a scary noise/object.  Kenya's favorite little "game" is me running around saying "OK!", throwing my arms out, and she jumps up and sort of smacks my arm with her paw or snout.  With the umbrella, we did this as the umbrella opened.  Now I can open the umbrella right in her face and she smiles in anticipation of the "OK!" game. 

spiritdogs

ron2

Let me try and address why the bits of chicken isn't working. You're on the right track but you are giving the chicken at the wrong time, possibly. Feeding him good stuff around stranger dogs won't solve the problem and it might reinforce his anxious behavior. "If I see another dog and get anxious, I get something good to eat." No, a dog doesn't think that way but the connection is there. What you want to do is use the chicken as a reward for the right behavior. What is the right behavior? Attention to you, that's one. Or not reacting. That is also an offered behavior or decision. So, it's a matter of timing. If you use a clicker as a marker, you can be much more exact. However, you do have to do some homework, in the associative learning process of having the clicker mean reward. That way, in public, when you dog acts as you want them to, you click right on the spot, which predicts the reward that might take a second to extract from your ziplock bag or whatever. So, you can use the reward and even a marker, even if it's just "good dog" but it is a matter of timing. If you give out the good stuff while the dog is reacting wrongly, then that behavior could be reinforced.

 

Here's what I do to create a different emotional response to a scary stimulus.  I use "open bar, closed bar".  When the scary thing appears, I feed my dog continuously (you need to be far enough away that the dog will eat, so quickly back up if you have to, even if you think you are too far to make a difference).  The very second that the scary thing disappears, so does the chicken.  If you do that long enough, the scary thing becomes less scary.  Why?  Because it predicts chicken.

To me, both posts are cockamamie statements that use food treats for the wrong reason.  First, if the situation was looked upon at 10,000 feet above, the dog has 2 issues....socialization and fear.  Each should be addressed separately and directly.  There is nothing wrong with feeding the reactive dog treats while around strange/familiar dogs.  This is a nourishment social event (snack time) and it is a good opportunity to teach the dog how to behave when other dogs and food are present.  I must mention that prior to the snack time social event, the dog should be use to many formal introductions to other dogs.  The association should be the expectation for good calm behavior around other dogs while treats are dispensed in a snack time contents not as an indirect pacifier to change reactive behavior.

Second, why introduce a 3rd element (chicken) when the scary thing appears.  The dog wants the scary thing to go away so make that the reward.  The dog is aware the scary thing is present and no food reward is going to make that awareness go away.  Remember, fear base behavior is a proximity issue and confidence building is the resolve  If the dog feels he is in control of the situation the problem would be "cured" and not managed.

DPU, what are you saying - that the behaviour you want is "calmness" and the reward is the "scary thing going away".  Where is the A in ABC?