Prey Drive

Chuffy

b)  The highest motivator for a high prey drive dog is very likely to be something other than food (ex. a toy, the opportunity to chase or kill something).

I'm still not sold on the kill as being the final motivator as I can't see it's use without the need for food. Yes, our dogs are well-fed and may still chase, catch, kill and Shadow has done so without eating the prey. I think the prey drive is hard-wired, even if the desparate need for food is not present. OTOH, it could be arrogant of me to think that humans are the only animal that enjoys killing. Maybe dogs can enjoy it, too. Or follow it as a species survival skill. Problem is, as someone pointed out, the kill and eat sequence has been bred out or dropped out along with the domestication of the dog.

Now, if I entice my dog with a toy that he can bite and shake as it he were killing it, am I using prey drive to achieve something? And I do agree that some activities have been so strongly chosen in breeding that the original purpose is but an academic memory. For example, sled dogs. Bred to run fast for a long time. In fact, the breed of Siberian Husky can run for longer durations than I think most wolves can. And they enjoy the running. The original purpose was to run fast for long enough to catch prey and kill and eat. But, in the breeding of the chukchi dog (Siberian Husky) the need to kill was possibly bred out by humans as all they were interested in was the running. And dogs that were prone to kill might not have been bred further. Same, I might imagine, with other breeds. As opposed to ancient sighthounds which might have been allowed to breed, even if they were killers. At some point in time, humans took over the evolutionary direction of dogs. In the hands of humans, dogs became radially adaptive. In addition to the fact that dogs, more than any other species, have such a fast mutation rate that one can create a new breed, such as the Dogo de Argentino in less than a century.

BTW, I like everyone's contributions and I think am learning something.

I wonder what drives a dog that is great with livestock under human direction, but without enough to do, will take off and herd on its own and make a royal mess of it.[emphasis added]

You answered your own question.  In the scenario below:

Reaching this understanding is the thing that carries a dog where prey drive leaves off.   And it's a function of all the herding traits working together, which is why many herding dogs don't even each this level 

I'm describing a high level of teamwork, which goes beyond prey drive, but in which prey drive works in harmony with other instincts, compulsions, and training.  Ron had asked whether prey drive ever has a point where it's not enough.  The above was the answer to that.

In the scenario you describe, the dog is simply acting on its instincts and there's no outside pressure to do something contrary to what feels best.  A dog in this position will revert to his own comfort zone - whatever trait is strongest in the dog.  Pressure-sensitive dogs will run rings around the stock for a while and get bored quickly.  Dogs with strong chase/play/prey drives will chase stock, split them off, take one down and do serious damage.  Dogs that like to control motion may either also start pulling sheep down in an effort to immobilize them, or as you say will take them to a fenceline.  Most of the time if that happens, actually, the dog will train the sheep to stay there, until they give up and just stay still.  Motion controlling dogs tend not to be the type of dog that will squash them once they are still. 

Probably what's happening with the scenario you describe is similar to what we face with Gus.  Gus is very task-oriented, and spent a lot of time loading sheep in trailers, pens, and chutes.  All you have to do is line them up and he'll do the rest, but he will push very hard and you have to tell him to stop - he's trained to keep pushing until someone says "Whoa."  That's the way most station/yard dogs are trained, too.

So again, he has a "cruise control" feature that he will fall back on if he's in a familar situation.  But, he's got very high prey drive (and low play drive by the way, he won't even look at a tennis ball, or even a chew toy), and if left alone where the sheep aren't grouped in that way, he'll start singling and chewing on them.  Patrick has let him get away with a lot because he feels sorry for his being deaf.  But Gus does know better and is capable of controlling his impulses. 

Regarding the Prey Drive and Eating: I wonder if eating what you kill is learned thing. In cats it's thought that eating what you kill is learned from your mother or by watching something else or being motivated by hunger. Although cats and dogs are two very different animals, it would seem plausible that that is learned behavior. After all, a whole rabbit looks quite different from a bowl of kibble or even a "processed" carcass (skinned, degutted, etc). On another forum a member posted a video of her dog and whole rabbit head she got her for her birthday and the dog tossed it around and played with it and had a grand ol' time but, I believe it was several days before she actually got mind to eat it.

Anyway, just a thought.  

Also, I like the modified prey drive analogy for border collies because I see it in Soda and to me watching a stylish BC work is so much like watching a wolf hunting, it's eerie! I watch Soda chase lizards or birds and she loves it and loves to stalk them but the part where you dive to bite and kill, even though she could, never seems to surface. My malamute x however, will happily kill a small animal and his chase sequence is usually accompanied by a move to kill the chase-ee. For instance, in the parking lot at work Soda chased down a wild rabbit and could have caught it if she had dove in but instead she looked confused when she got too close. She kind of backed off. It's as if she didn't know what do when it came to that point.

 
Maybe my bc is just dumb, but it seems like the kill portion is missing, or at least slower to kick in, but she definitely doesn't seem to get the stalk, chase then KILL sequence. Hers seems to be stalk, chase, look for something else to chase.  But then I think about the instances that we hear of BC's being farm animal killers and I guess we're back at the beginning, eh?

(A note on Soda: She's NOT a purpose bred BC--she's a rescue who was born in a puppy mill) 

ron2

I'm still not sold on the kill as being the final motivator as I can't see it's use without the need for food. Yes, our dogs are well-fed and may still chase, catch, kill and Shadow has done so without eating the prey. I think the prey drive is hard-wired, even if the desparate need for food is not present. OTOH, it could be arrogant of me to think that humans are the only animal that enjoys killing. Maybe dogs can enjoy it, too. Or follow it as a species survival skill. Problem is, as someone pointed out, the kill and eat sequence has been bred out or dropped out along with the domestication of the dog.

 

In most canines, I believe the chase-bite-kill compulsion is so incredibly strong that they don't need to be hungry to do it. I read a paper on the overkill phenomenon once, and the authors observed that foxes and dogs overkilled when they found themselves in a very exciting situation, such as a chicken coop full of panicked, flapping chickens with nowhere to hide or flee to. On the other hand, cats almost never overkill. At least, the writers of the paper couldn't find any accounts, although well-fed cats are known to go off and hunt every night anyway, and I guess they don't always eat it, although in my experience, a well-fed cat will often eat what they have caught and killed eventually.

We all know that canids are opportunistic hunters for the most part, or at least foxes and feral dogs are, so I think that is the answer to the problem of motivation. There is no motivation. Just the urge to chase-bite-kill. Pyry will hunt an animal he knows is in the yard relentlessly for hours. Sometimes he's back there every time he goes outside looking for it for the next 2 days. I've seen him pull apart a garage wall to get at a possum. He's capable of things when he's hunting that he just doesn't do any other time. When he kills an animal, he never eats it. He kills it and walks away, although sometimes he'll carry it around for a bit. Hours of intense hunting about culminates in the bite and kill, and then it's all over for him. We come home to find a dead bluey with only one or two puncture marks, but otherwise untouched. He absolutely does not have to be hungry to hunt. He is ALWAYS interested in hunting. He's not often interested in play, although occasionally he gets a bit of tug and fetch going, but he won't retrieve from very far away. He was doing flyball for a while, but could not be motivated to do it at more than a leisurely trot! He's a herding breed, but he's also a very old breed and poorly bred to boot. I wouldn't be surprised if Vallhunds were expected to be good ratters as well as decent herders and easy-going companions. They were probably an all-rounder. Pyry is vastly disinterested in herding, though. Penny plays at it, but he never does.

Becca, thanks for your interpretation.  

ron2

Chuffy

b)  The highest motivator for a high prey drive dog is very likely to be something other than food (ex. a toy, the opportunity to chase or kill something).

I'm still not sold on the kill as being the final motivator as I can't see it's use without the need for food.

Really?  Why do you think hunting and killing are so pleasureable for humans?  I know we are not dogs, but our "recent" ancestors" were hunters too.  The chase is satisfying.  The kill is satisfying.  Us humans have got "society" now and we say that it's not civilised, it's bloodthirsty, we should suppress it and only kill what we plan to eat and maybe not even that.  Dogs are still animals, they HAVEN'T got society.

ron2

OTOH, it could be arrogant of me to think that humans are the only animal that enjoys killing.

I don't think it is arrogant of you, but I certainly think it's incorrect.  Any hunting species that DIDN'T enjoy killing would soon die out or evolve into a species that either a) didn't hunt or b) did enjoy killing!

Look at it in terms of OC if it makes things simpler:  If you reward strongly for a sit, the sit alone can become reinforcing to the dog in its own right, no?  If the kill is rewarded strongly (with the opportunity to eat) often enough, that too becomes reinforcing in its own right... and don't forget this has been distilled through many many generations of evolution.

Chuffy

Why do you think hunting and killing are so pleasureable for humans

Humans could be cracked in the head. I like fishing, which is relaxing, but I don't fish just for the sake of catch and release or the joy of reeling one in. I catch to eat and I eat what I catch. I know a lot about hunting from having friends and family that hunt and I might try it one day but I don't enjoy killing. I may have to do it as a necessity with animals in order to eat, with humans in self-defense. And I wasn't clear enough, earlier. About humans enjoying killing. I was thinking of Ted Bundy, et al.

Chuffy

Dogs are still animals, they HAVEN'T got society.

I think they do have society and they establish it quite easily, even with stranger dogs.

I agree with the OC side of it. An activity that leads to survival, which is rewarding, can be repeated. And animals that have a tendency to hunt, as well as scavenge, have optimum chances for survival. I am reminded of a local fishing maxim.

You give a man a fish, you feed him for a day. Teach a man to fish and he will spend 8 hours in a boat, drinking beer.

So the prey drive in dogs is derivative of a wild canid ancestry. For whatever reason ( secondary or tertiary importance) the eat part is largely been muted, the dog still finds something rewarding about the chase, catch, kill because it is a species thing that led to survival. I know and ACO in our area who has a Lab that kills and eats squirrels.

But I do think that, to some extent, any animal has to learn to kill and eat. The chase and catch anything that moves might be reflexive or nearly so, but what to do with the prize takes a little finesse, I imagine.

ron2

Humans could be cracked in the head. I like fishing, which is relaxing, but I don't fish just for the sake of catch and release or the joy of reeling one in. I catch to eat and I eat what I catch. I know a lot about hunting from having friends and family that hunt and I might try it one day but I don't enjoy killing. I may have to do it as a necessity with animals in order to eat, with humans in self-defense. And I wasn't clear enough, earlier. About humans enjoying killing. I was thinking of Ted Bundy, et al.

I don't know, a friend of mine once mused to me a while ago that maybe this suppression of man's natural "prey drive" (I think the word he used was bloodlust, but that's a rather ugly, loaded and emotional term) might contribute to certain people going down that route.  As for me, I don't know... satisfaction in a clean kill is understandable and different in my view from pleasure in a messy one.  In any case, I'll stop there as I suspect that's a topic for another thread.

ron2

Chuffy

Dogs are still animals, they HAVEN'T got society.

I think they do have society and they establish it quite easily, even with stranger dogs.

Perhaps I should have use dthe word "civilisation" instead of society...

ron2

But I do think that, to some extent, any animal has to learn to kill and eat. The chase and catch anything that moves might be reflexive or nearly so, but what to do with the prize takes a little finesse, I imagine.

Yes this is what I was talking about.... Some personality types (was it Becca that called them "tool users" or something?) might make the leap on their own, some more so if pushed by hunger to try eating almost anything, but I think most need to be shown or taught that you can eat this stuff as well!

By rewarding with food for desired behaviour, the dog eats without ever actually going into prey drive; it is not needed or facilitated.  In most species, killing is not ALWAYS necessary to eat.  You can just happen along someone elses kill, or a rubbish dump, or a handy food bowl recently filled.  Again, this leads me to think they are seperate, and each has a value in its own right.

Chuffy

By rewarding with food for desired behaviour, the dog eats without ever actually going into prey drive; it is not needed or facilitated.  In most species, killing is not ALWAYS necessary to eat.  You can just happen along someone elses kill, or a rubbish dump, or a handy food bowl recently filled.  Again, this leads me to think they are seperate, and each has a value in its own right.

True. And is part of the existence of a dog's life. Canids that could eat the food offered or discarded by humans became domesticated and the need to have a fully operational prey drive became not as necessary. I know prey drive is there, I'm just trying to suss out the importance or effect of it.

Some personality types (was it Becca that called them "tool users" or something?) might make the leap on their own,

It was my friend Melanie who is on the K9 Behavioral Genetics project at UCSF (Karen Overall is also helping with this project).  These are the dogs who can think outside the box easily.  Buster cube?  Whatever.  It's empty in less time than it takes to eat food from a plain dog dish.  Door locks?  Just a brief challenge mostly limited by the lack of opposable thumbs.

These kinds of dogs don't require instinct to figure out how to do something that will benefit them.  Ben has less prey drive than any Border Collie I know, but he will chase a ball because he enjoys making me happy, and he will kill a duck or sheep to stop it from moving.  By the way, he's never harmed a sheep - I can't say the same about the duck, sadly.

malnmutt

Regarding the Prey Drive and Eating: I wonder if eating what you kill is learned thing

That's my thinking  

No, I don't think it's learned. I mean, Pyry doesn't want to kill cats, but he certainly does want to kill rabbits, lizards and birds. And he was mightily interested in the under-sized calf he met at the vets one morning. He wants to kill possums, too. Haven't tried him with a ferret, but it would be interesting.

I really think he'd eat what he killed if he were hungry. I think he goes for prey animals because something in his brain tells him they're for chasing, biting and killing. I'm pretty confident he can smell the difference between a prey animal and a predator. 

Our cats don't often eat what they kill, either. But they will if left alone with it long enough and if breakfast is a long way away or what's on the menu doesn't seem that attractive today compared to mouse. Mostly they just can't be bothered dismembering whatever it is they caught when easier food is available. I suspect it's much the same with Pyry. If Jill kills something, it's by accident and she won't eat it because she didn't set out to kill it in the first place. She was playing and when it stopped moving it became boring. I mentioned once before how she taunted Pyry with a frog they'd found. She was only interested in it because Pyry wanted it. Pyry was interested because he wanted to kill it.  

I think prey animals trigger a reaction from prey drivey dogs, but that's just a trigger.  It doesn't mean they know they are good to eat.  It would take hunger and a leap of imagination to work that one out, so yeah, I'd still say "learned". 

Chuffy

It doesn't mean they know they are good to eat.  It would take hunger and a leap of imagination to work that one out, so yeah, I'd still say "learned".