Prey Drive

I can assure you that herding is most definitely not play.

on what basis do you make this statement?  the dogs look like they are having a blast "playing" with the sheep/cows/ducks. Most herding breeds  seemed to have very high play-drives, thus the ease with which one can get them to "play" agility, "play" with livestock, "play" with guys wearing padded sleeves, play frisbee, etc. And they appear to have been selected to not-quit, many a BC will play frisbee until they literally drop dead, so stating that just because they don't quit when it gets hard doesn't mean it's thought of as work by the dog.

I odnt think the dog in the first vid Becca posted (for example) looked like he was "having a blast".  He was very, very focused and intent.  I cant see how anyone could describe that as "play"..... 

As I say, there's a distinct difference between "play" and real herding.  Anyone who has trained a herding dog above the started level knows this, and understands it, sometimes to their sorrow when they realize that their wonderful dog who showed so much "promise" when play fails to take them past the most rudimentary levels of training.

There's no doubt - if you've ever seen a herding dog "turn on" and go from play to work, you'd never doubt this again.  No matter what the breed, there's a point where it's like throwing a switch and the dog starts calling on some other part of their being, usually one they've never fully understood.

Watch a Border Collie go around the agility course - tail flagging, waving, looking for that play or treat reinforcement.  Sometimes even barking.

Now watch those videos again - there's none of that.  Here's a young dog being trained: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=P2CoPrWf3fc

Here is a nine week old puppy "playing" at herding.  Note the tail, the head up - just having fun!  http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WnYfS38dvX8

Here is a puppy that is "turned on" to compare - again note tail and head position:  http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bBFtpqECysE

Here' an older pup who goes from horsing around to being serious:  http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LfuaQGzNzzE

 

Your first reply in this thread was quite informative. While prey drive gives the dog the "want to" that leads to the work of herding, they don't follow through on the final goal of prey drive, which is to catch, kill, and eat the prey. So, if one were to depend on prey drive to teach or learn other things, might there be a limit to that use, as well?

FWIW, when Shadow has killed a squirrel or rat, he does not consume it. A few times, the squirrel was just squished, no doubt, from playing too hard with it. Once he caught a baby dove and it was chewed but he was not eating it. So, even though his prey drive gave him the oomph to go after the critter, it did not take him to the conclusion of eating it. Is that a limit in the species of dog? Or is more of an occupational thing or even recreational thing, since we provide for the dog's food needs?

 

 

So, if one were to depend on prey drive to teach or learn other things, might there be a limit to that use, as well?

The short answer is "yes." 

Ready for the long answer?

When a Border Collie pup starts out, he begins with an incomplete set of traits.  Usually the pup feels "pressure" - ie, he can sense the flight zone of the stock and also their resolve to stand against him.  Some pups have the instinct to control movement (this is what your Aussie buddy does with the ball).  The pup may also have a play drive that compels him to chase stock.

Interestingly, all these drives and compulsions are at war without the final piece of the puzzle - prey drive.  And true prey drive develops quite late.  In Border Collies it doesn't mature fully until 8 to 18 months.

We expose the pup to stock, at regular intervals, and at some point, prey drive develops to the point that it sustains the pup past the initial difficulties.  Before that, at different times the pup will stall out or be unworkable.  If play drive dominates, then injury to the stock will ensue very soon.  Or humans.  Or dogs.  If the feel for pressure/flight zone dominates, then the pup will refuse to interact, try to keep as far from the stock as possible, even try to run away.  If the compulsion to control movement dominates, the pup will swing between getting "locked up" when nothing's happening (as if the stock are backed into a corner), and crashing into the stock and chewing on them in a desperate attempt to stop the motion.

All these instincts must be present to work stock, but they must exist in a balance.  Some of the balance emerges with maturity, but it is training most of all, that brings everything together.  And it is prey drive that helps a dog push against pressure, ignore movement if it not relevant to the "game plan," and it takes over as a more constructive substitute for simple play.  It keeps a dog going when the human insists that there are rules.  Then the rules themselves help all the other pieces work in harmony.

A dog should sense and be ready to control movement, when asked, but should not invade the zone that his sense for pressure, indicates - UNLESS we ask him to.  Prey drive gives a dog the work ethic to keep offering answers during training, until he hits the right balance of these behaviors, in a multitude of different working situations.

He should follow or block stock but not chase or harass.  Prey drive includes this concept, where play drive does not.  This is where Mel/Coltrane, in the video I linked last above, went wrong.  Anytime we asked him to follow/block, but not harass the stock, he would quit, or try to sneak in a cheap shot, or run around in a completely brainless and useless fashion.

It looks in the video like he's sort of keeping the sheep together and bringing them and holding them to my friend.  At the next level though, he'd have to run a little distance to get to the sheep and bring them back without help from the handler, blocking one side.  That is where the balance of all the above traits comes into play, plus the ability to take training.  It was "my way or the highway" for him, and without some sense of partnership, we can't help a dog understand how to use all his abilities to do useful things, and come into harmony with the stock.

Because true stock work is not about the livestock being AFRAID of the dog.  It is about the dog building the TRUST of the livestock.  Real herding comes when a dog comes to an understanding with his stock, where he says in essence:  "I have the ability to stop you from going where you want to, but as long as you move away from me quietly, I will not harm you."  Livestock can sense that.  And in return they communicate, "I will do what you want as long as you do not threaten or harass me."  And dogs can sense that. 

You see the difference when the interaction reaches this level.  The stock stop fighting and obviously are moving at their own will, sometimes even stopping to get a juicy looking bite on the way.  The dog is relaxed and takes commands with ease, his mind freed up by the relaxed pace.  Everything moves very calmly, and the stock almost seem to move as if trained.  And in a sense they are trained - they are trained by the dog.

There's a saying, "Good dogs make good livestock, and good livestock makes good dogs."  This harmonious relationship with the stock is the ultimate drive for a good herding dog.  Reaching this understanding is the thing that carries a dog where prey drive leaves off.   And it's a function of all the herding traits working together, which is why many herding dogs don't even each this level and why it would be impossible for a dog not purpose-bred for herding, to accomplish the type of herding I linked to above in the video clips. 

It's called "settling" sheep - you can see it in action in this video.  Watch for the sheep to slow down.  There's no whistle command for "Settle the sheep!"  The whistles you hear only tell the dog to go right or left, or slower or faster.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4oSTpU4-Ii0
 

That's a great reply. And I can understand, too, wherein the stock and the dog reach mutual knowledge of their roles.

I wonder if there's a breed of dog that will hunt to eat. I know of dogs that are bred to bait or even pursue and hold, such as some of the terriers, the Dogo de Argentino. In fact, the hunting breeds might have some prey drive but they don't necessarily eat what they catch. Then again, feral and abandoned dogs will eat what they can get ahold of or find.

So, in both your experience and mine, prey drive only goes so far. And there's just not a lot of prey drive with me involved. I can throw a toy, he will get it and want to be chased because he has the toy. Or, he will bring it to me for tug. Other times, he will set it in my lap so that we can either trade it back and forth or I can toss it again. That seems more like play for play's sake and burning some idle energy and a social bonding than anything that involves him viewing me as prey. The running after the thrown toy might be considered part of prey drive. Or it's just social play. He doesn't have opposable thumbs in order for us to play Five Card Stud. So, our play will include the functional limitations of his body, the language barrier.

 

I wonder if there's a breed of dog that will hunt to eat.

I think almost any dog will hunt if driven to do so by hunger.  It's a question of degree, and whether they have the supportive tools to do so even if it is difficult. 

"Prey drive" isn't one switch on the DNA - it's our shorthand for a complex set of behaviors that dogs inherit to more or less degree.  Some have more of this and some have more of that.  Some have impulses that are bred into them that may need to be overcome in order to complete a hunt/kill sequence. 

And, it will depend on the dog, whether they will turn to killing sooner or later - does the dog have the will to act beyond his instincts?  I have a dog who does not - if starvation depended on having do to something beyond his genetics, Cord would be the first to go.  Ditto to Min and probably Tully too.  But Lu, my Pyrenees mix, has killed rodents, though she has never eaten them. 

But many of my other dogs are bred to think "outside the box" - a friend of mine who studies genetic subgroups, particularly in the evolutionary context, calls such dogs, "tool users."  Gus, for instance, can open any door or cabinet in this house - even the French doors which are fastened with a slide bolt in the floor.  He'd be the first one to think, "Hey, if we kill these sheep instead of just controlling them, we can have them for lunch!"  I don't think he'd have to be particularly hungry either.  Ben too, will do anything possible to facilitate mealtime.  He goes and brings me all the bowls scattered through the house - he taught himself that, because he's learned that I'll stop what I'm doing and feed if the pile of bowls in my lap gets big enough. 

Border Collies have herding dog bloodlines bred into them, and then they also have sighthound crossed in, dating back not very far, and as you know sighthounds have no problem terminating the kill sequence.  But they also have had bird dog crossed in, in which the prey sequence stalls out at "Locate/follow/control."

Zhi has caught, killed, and eaten bunnies.  I had a dog who could capture wild birds and he'd eat them when caught.  He is now putting his talent to good and constructive use ridding properties of nuisance birds, up north.

So like many other things, it depends on a lot of circumstances, some external, some inside the dog's head.  Like many other behavioral traits, there's no way to guess ahead of time to what degree any one dog has a trait, until you offer the circumstance under which he can demonstrate that trait.  That's why we emphasize so strongly in the Border Collie, that we can't ensure the continuance of the complete package of herding ability, unless each breeding generation is trained up to that high level.

brookcove

Reaching this understanding is the thing that carries a dog where prey drive leaves off.   And it's a function of all the herding traits working together, which is why many herding dogs don't even each this level and why it would be impossible for a dog not purpose-bred for herding, to accomplish the type of herding I linked to above in the video clips. 

 

 

Admittedly, my experience of working herders is extremely limited, but I've been told by one or two sheep farmers with several working Kelpies that the dogs have to be kennelled or chained when there isn't enough herding to keep them busy or else they'll go off and herd on their own, which often leads to them piling a flock against a fence so tight that the ones on the bottom suffocate. Obviously that scenario is a pretty big breakdown in the herder-livestock relationship that you describe. I wonder what drives a dog that is great with livestock under human direction, but without enough to do, will take off and herd on its own and make a royal mess of it. The working Kelpies I've seen most certainly do have a switch. When it's time to work, they work and they work hard until the job is done, then they collapse and take it easy until they're needed again. They don't seem very interested in playing. But then I think about Jill, who is part Kelpie and loves to play fetch, but any other game while fun and interesting doesn't hold her like fetch does, and the focus is super intense. It doesn't look like play should be that serious, but for her it is.

But then I think about Jill, who is part Kelpie and loves to play fetch, but any other game while fun and interesting doesn't hold her like fetch does, and the focus is super intense. It doesn't look like play should be that serious, but for her it is.

I've met a lot of border collies in my agility experiences. Everything they enjoy doing they do with super intense focus. And it's all play. Intense focus on the ball, intense focus on the frisbee, intense focus on the sheep. Intense focus on the agility course. That's what they were bred to do, to play, and to play with intense focus. My neighbor's dog, best guess is BC/GSD mix, acts very similarly. He plays with intense focus. He also happily herds dogs, kids, squirrels, deer, rakes, shovels. whatever, as part of his intense focused playing. He never switches out of "play mode". My Danes have intense prey drive- see animal, chase animal, kill animal. Hunting. Clearly not play. They have low play drive, high prey drive;  herding dogs have very high play drives and very low prey drives. I think people have it wrong when they talk about using toys to satisfy prey drive- many of the dogs I've met with extremely high prey drives won't chase moving toys or play tug. Kill rabbit yes.

mudpuppy

herding dogs have very high play drives and very low prey drives. I think people have it wrong when they talk about using toys to satisfy prey drive- many of the dogs I've met with extremely high prey drives won't chase moving toys or play tug. Kill rabbit yes.

Ares was an excellent herder. Ares is high in prey drive. Ares is low in play drive. Ares has no interest in toys. If a rabbit were to cross his path, he'd be on it in a flash. Just because a BC has play drive when *playing* with a *toy*, that doesn't mean they are operating in play drive when working stock. Just because they enjoy doing something doesn't mean they are in play drive. A hunting dog enjoying the kill is in prey drive, and he's enjoying it. A protection dog fighting with an agitator is in fight drive and he is enjoying it. None of the drives need to work exclusively, either. A dog can operate in prey drive and play drive and fight drive either simultaneously or in such rapid succession that it's not easy to notice the switch. Play drive, IME, is typically seen in social settings and in young dogs learning the skills they'll need later. Playing at herding is much different from herding. A dog who is playing at herding will chase and gather up anything. A dog who is herding but not playing is very much committed to the task at hand. Ares never herded, or attempted to herd anything other than sheep and cows. But he did amazing work when asked to move sheep or cows. I do agree with you that toys don't satisfy prey drive. In some dogs prey drives can be converted to allow an outlet with toys. I also believe that much of sport protection training relies heavily on play drive.

ron2

Your first reply in this thread was quite informative. While prey drive gives the dog the "want to" that leads to the work of herding, they don't follow through on the final goal of prey drive, which is to catch, kill, and eat the prey.

 

I don't think prey drive necessarily involves the "eat" part of that sequence. Just chase-catch-bite-kill.  Otherwise you could assume that dogs with a high prey drive are very food motivated (because that is the ultimate "point", the end of the sequence)  Prey-drivey dogs are not always food motivated in my experience.  Also, many times I have seen dogs "engage" even if they are not hungry.  I have also seen dogs chase-catch-bite-kill and yet NOT eat, whether they were hungry or not.  "This is good for chasing!"  does not automatically transfer to "this is good to eat!".  Chasing, catching and killing is satisfying in its own right.  Eating is also satisfying, but in a different way.

Personally, I don't think training with food rewards is, on its own, tapping into prey drive, because I see "prey drive" as being that desire to chase-catch-kill, with the eat part being seperate. 

mudpuppy

But then I think about Jill, who is part Kelpie and loves to play fetch, but any other game while fun and interesting doesn't hold her like fetch does, and the focus is super intense. It doesn't look like play should be that serious, but for her it is.

I've met a lot of border collies in my agility experiences. Everything they enjoy doing they do with super intense focus. And it's all play. Intense focus on the ball, intense focus on the frisbee, intense focus on the sheep. Intense focus on the agility course. That's what they were bred to do, to play, and to play with intense focus. My neighbor's dog, best guess is BC/GSD mix, acts very similarly. He plays with intense focus. He also happily herds dogs, kids, squirrels, deer, rakes, shovels. whatever, as part of his intense focused playing. He never switches out of "play mode". My Danes have intense prey drive- see animal, chase animal, kill animal. Hunting. Clearly not play. They have low play drive, high prey drive;  herding dogs have very high play drives and very low prey drives. I think people have it wrong when they talk about using toys to satisfy prey drive- many of the dogs I've met with extremely high prey drives won't chase moving toys or play tug. Kill rabbit yes.

 

I'll agree on the point re. herders and intense focus.  But that on its own doesn't mean that herding is just play.  In the video Becca posted where that dog had to run (how many hundreds of yards to even reach the sheep??) - do you think that was play?  The dog was most definitely "working" in my view... it wasn't just "play with intense focus".  There was nothing to suggest "play" to me in that setting, nothing from the dog to indicate, "hey this is a great game!  I'm enjoying this play!  Isn't it fun?"  I can't see your logic evident in this clip, let alone any of the others

I also think corgipower made some great points about it not being play just because the dog is enjoying himself....

Chuffy

Otherwise you could assume that dogs with a high prey drive are very food motivated (because that is the ultimate "point", the end of the sequence)  Prey-drivey dogs are not always food motivated in my experience. 

I think on a very rudimentary level, and in the wild, true prey drive does end with the eating after the kill. With our pets, who are well fed at home, the eating part of the sequence has been abated, perhaps or even bred down. Drives are hard-wired behaviors that are essential for survival. We as people have utilized natural drives to train dogs to accomplish a variety of tasks and we have selected dogs for breeding that exhibit the drives we are seeking. I have yet to see a dog that was high in prey drive that couldn't be motivated with food - unless he was being free fed and was not hungry or if he had been allowed to become picky. Dogs that are being trained in play drive may look prey-drivey and be unmotivated by food.

 

corgipower

Chuffy

Otherwise you could assume that dogs with a high prey drive are very food motivated (because that is the ultimate "point", the end of the sequence)  Prey-drivey dogs are not always food motivated in my experience. 

I think on a very rudimentary level, and in the wild, true prey drive does end with the eating after the kill.

In the wild, I suppose it is a vast waste to expend energy chasing prey that you don't eat.  Yet there are many chases that do not end in a kill.  It is in the interest of the species, I think, for the chase alone to be satisfying on some level. 

Also, I think "what you eat" is defined by "nurture" (how the pup is raised), while prey drive is there when the dog is born.  I would hazard a guess and say most (if not all) dogs are born with the chase-catch-kill hardwired into their brain; it does not have to be taught.  But something like "chase catch kill rabbits" IS taught I think.  Many dogs with a reasonably high prey drive can still live harmoniously with small furry critters, it all comes back to how they have been raised. 

corgipower

I have yet to see a dog that was high in prey drive that couldn't be motivated with food - unless he was being free fed and was not hungry or if he had been allowed to become picky.

Frankly, I think this is true of any dog, not just those with a high prey drive.  My point is.... Well, let me put it this way:  Do you think it would be more true to say that:

a) The highest motivator for a high prey drive dog is very likely to be food

OR

b)  The highest motivator for a high prey drive dog is very likely to be something other than food (ex. a toy, the opportunity to chase or kill something).

Chuffy

Also, I think "what you eat" is defined by "nurture" (how the pup is raised), while prey drive is there when the dog is born.  I would hazard a guess and say most (if not all) dogs are born with the chase-catch-kill hardwired into their brain; it does not have to be taught.

I agree that prey drive is hardwired at birth (although not in *all* dogs). I don't think it manifests itself until the dog matures.

Chuffy

Do you think it would be more true to say that:

a) The highest motivator for a high prey drive dog is very likely to be food

OR

b)  The highest motivator for a high prey drive dog is very likely to be something other than food (ex. a toy, the opportunity to chase or kill something).

I would think that the highest motivator for a high prey drive dog is the opportunity to chase something ~ although I haven't tested that theory. A toy would only be effective as a motivator if the dog had play drive. I think that many dogs with high prey drive also have high play drive. The main thing that led me to start differentiating between the two drives was Ares.