Prey Drive

 Border Collie people have been all around the block with regard to what role prey drive plays in herding.   Clearly, there is one, but where it fits in is a matter for much discussion (heated discussion, hee!). 

Most agree on the basic point that without prey drive, BCs wouldn't have the "want to" to run a mile in all kinds of weather, to get sheep that might be there.  But, it is not pure prey drive, for two reasons.  One, part of prey drive is tracking/selection of prey, and Border Collies exhibit equal work ethic in sight/smell or out of sight, of stock.  Two, most Border Collies will not act on the ultimate goal of prey drive, and that is, making lunch of the prey.

It seems prey drive, or the hunting behavior, is more complex than a simple single characteristic or behavior.  Coppinger and Coppinger, of course, feel that they identified at least three or four discrete behaviors which merge in the wild form, but are manipulated by human selection.  So, Border Collies gather and control and have cooperative behaviors, but have lowered potential for hunting and killing.  LGDs have almost zero hunt and kill instinct, much heightened pack/cooperative instinct, and a very heightened instinct to control.  Other types of dogs show different combinations of these traits to create useful genetic baselines that we can take and train. 

It's an interesting theory, but it's a little blurred by the fact that the BC gene pool is so varied that every time someone tries to propose a general theory, someone else pipes up with, "but my dog," or "I had or knew a dog that . . ."  It seems though that it's generally true that the above characteristics are shared by most useful BCs.

I'll come back later as I've got more to share on how prey drive works with other instincts, plus training.  Gotta get ready to get out of here though - I've been moving fleeces around and I smell like sheep!
 

brookcove

Most agree on the basic point that without prey drive, BCs wouldn't have the "want to" to run a mile in all kinds of weather, to get sheep that might be there.  But, it is not pure prey drive, for two reasons.  One, part of prey drive is tracking/selection of prey, and Border Collies exhibit equal work ethic in sight/smell or out of sight, of stock.  Two, most Border Collies will not act on the ultimate goal of prey drive, and that is, making lunch of the prey.

It seems prey drive, or the hunting behavior, is more complex than a simple single characteristic or behavior.  Coppinger and Coppinger, of course, feel that they identified at least three or four discrete behaviors which merge in the wild form, but are manipulated by human selection.  So, Border Collies gather and control and have cooperative behaviors, but have lowered potential for hunting and killing.  LGDs have almost zero hunt and kill instinct, much heightened pack/cooperative instinct, and a very heightened instinct to control.  Other types of dogs show different combinations of these traits to create useful genetic baselines that we can take and train.

brookcove

LGDs have almost zero hunt and kill instin

Would this be true tho? Aren't many required to KILL predatory critters that threaten the flock? They seem to HAVE drive to aggress towards something...but perhaps this would be more like a momma and pups scenario? Defend or territory drive? But isn't territorial drive..connected with prey since holding territory means access to food within in it?

Whee confused myself in 15 seconds...that's a new record for me!

I think there's a difference between hunt & kill (predatory) and defend (territorial or pack).  Maybe thinking about it that way will unconfuzz ya.

(Distinct possibility it could make things worse, too, LOL)

I suppose so.

No one's out there a lot of the time w/ a LGD...that's the whole point LOL.

Maybe they do eat a bit of the animals they dispatch. Maybe it's simply reversal...the sheep are dogs and everything else is potential prey? Heck for all we know the dog could be really confused as to why the sheep won't hunt with them...LMBO.

Complicated. I think I will stick to "lick drive"

I think "herding" is actually "play". When dogs play they do imitate real-life drive-behaviors like predation and fighting, but it's not real and is not taken to completion.

rwbeagles

I suppose so.

No one's out there a lot of the time w/ a LGD...that's the whole point LOL.

Maybe they do eat a bit of the animals they dispatch. Maybe it's simply reversal...the sheep are dogs and everything else is potential prey? Heck for all we know the dog could be really confused as to why the sheep won't hunt with them...LMBO.

Complicated. I think I will stick to "lick drive"

mudpuppy

I think "herding" is actually "play". When dogs play they do imitate real-life drive-behaviors like predation and fighting, but it's not real and is not taken to completion.

My BIL's Aussie can herd and cut a ball in play and I have no doubt that she would transfer easily to a sheep ranch.

Our friend, who's son's former girlfriend gave us Shadow, did have for a while a Great Pyrenees. From her, she learned about the extra hide and fur that GP's have which allow them to take a bit from a coyote while stomping it to bits. So they may have a sort of aggressive ability when it comes to protecting the group they are in. She was not raised around sheep but she took them easily when I friend re-homed her to a sheep ranch. In fact, she is such a fine and natural LGD that her new owners want to breed her but Lilli, the dog in question, will have none of it. A male gets within 10 feet with interest and she scares him off. And she will run off wild canids and other predators. So, her territorial aggression is a desired trait for the job she has. And she doesn't do it for resources, as in my theory. She does it because that's her job, that's what she does. Deep down, it may relate to the quest for resources or conserving them.

Would this be true tho? Aren't many required to KILL predatory critters that threaten the flock? They seem to HAVE drive to aggress towards something...but perhaps this would be more like a momma and pups scenario?

No, actually LGDs do a lot of posturing but almost no actual aggression.  They are about as far from aggressive as it gets.  They have extreme amounts of self-control.  I've seen my dogs many times with an animal that insisted on trespassing, after repeated warnings, now in the complete power of the LGD.  And my Maremmas will give that dog/coyote/strange person chance after chance before getting physical in any way.  Then it's more like a mama dog correcting puppies - pinning, roaring in the face, non-injurious nipping.  I've only seen my dogs injure one animal, ever and that was a really weird dog that kept coming back to "play" with the sheep, at my old farm.  And I think she really injured herself, squirming to get away when pinned by my big male.

Min nearly died from neglect and starvation in her previous home, because she would not hunt nor even kill stuff in her territory, and she was too scared to eat most of the food put out for her by kind-hearted neighbors.  My dogs here will go up and help themselves to stuff off my neighbor's "dead pile" - but only after the bones have fallen apart.   

There are LGDs that are more aggressive, but they are bred that way.  Selection for aggression is a separate matter - I don't believe it has anything to do with prey drive, except that they are controlled in the same part of the brain (along with the flight, and sex drives).  

Ron, a dog's ability to play with a ball has almost no relation to herding ability, in my experience.  Sorry.   

I think "herding" is actually "play". When dogs play they do imitate real-life drive-behaviors like predation and fighting, but it's not real and is not taken to completion.

No, play is recognized by experts as being separate from what's going on during work.  I've seen many dogs who can be carried up to a point in training by the "fun" of it - chasing, running - it's all very exciting.  But there's a point where that attitude can't take them any further - it gets too hard, too many things to think about at once, too many expectations.

That's when the big dogs run and the rest stay on the porch.  Otherwise any lab mix could work livestock as well as a Border Collie.

Here's a run at one of the East Coast's most prestigious trials.  My friend Denise and her ten year old dog Mick, who she raised and trained herself.  The dog has to get sheep that are over 600 yards away at this trial - and the dog doesn't run straight - the dog runs in a sort of circle behind the sheep, so, pi-r-squared, um, whatever, it's a really long way the dog runs just to get to the sheep - which it can't see, by the way.

It's hard to talk about "herding drive" being this or that unless you see it at its highest potential. 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aEO2HwIYyPw 

The lady who has graciously agreed to help me fine tune my Ted dog, at THE most prestigious East Coast trial, the Bluegrass Classic.  This dog is also about ten years old.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-PBGtD7PG7o

My trainer, also at the Bluegrass Classic.  Spottie is also about ten years old.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uRQXCq6SkFQ

More again later.  Still have to talk about prey drive and training.
 

brookcove

No, actually LGDs do a lot of posturing but almost no actual aggression.  They are about as far from aggressive as it gets.  They have extreme amounts of self-control. 

That might be so, but I understand they also have to be able to feed themselves while out there. Presumably they are capable hunters of small things purely for food?

I know some LGD folks on a local forum. They find dead dingoes and wild dogs on their properties all the time. I honestly can't imagine a wee little dingo or wild dog not bolting the moment a great big Kangal Dog or something came roaring down at them.  

As I said, they have breeds that are selected for more aggression.  Kangals are definitely way, way up there.  My chosen breeds are on the non-aggressive side, as are most used on small farms in North America.

It probably depends on the dog, and how it was raised, as far as hunting goes.  It's more common here to actually feed the dogs, rather than forcing them to forage - you get more out of a dog that way, I think.  But the dogs don't guard because of prey drive, and that was the point of the thread.