Prong collars

Prongs I'm not sure about, but choke/check chains are illegal here, though I think half-chokes are not.  I support that because I think the people who tend to use choke chains "as a last resort" are often the ones who didn't try a "first resort" to begin with, and they just seem like a miracle cure.  I daresay there are situations in which they are used properly and effectively, but not, as a general rule, by the public at large.
 
Prongs, used with careful consideration and the appropriate care, are a different story IMHO.
 
Kate

Anne, I couldn't agree with you more.  Had I known then what I know now, I'd never have needed to go with a prong for Thor.
 
When we started doing drag line work with our crew, the leash manners improved dramatically.  I've been told that this is because they became used to listening to me and focusing better on me.  My two "babies" are without a doubt my best leash walkers and I've not put much work into leash training to be quite honest.  But they are used to off lead walks and have learned that way that sticking close to mom pays off.  Yet I can slap a leash on either of them and take them to strange places...as with Tyler to the MS Walk with lots of strange people and dogs around.....and there are NO pulling issues.  I wish that I had been in a place to do that with Thor because I honestly think that would have made a huge difference with him as well.  NOW his issues are resolved, but I might have been able to acheive the same result without the prong.

The other aspect to this is that GSD's are often well managed in prongs, so long as they aren't timid or aggressive by nature.  The fact is that they are sensitive, so the pressure exerted by the collar matters to them.
But, when you attempt the same with a pain insensitive Lab or hound, often you are just dragged down the street anyway.  Some dogs simply don't care about the collar, and just insist on pulling anyway.  It's been my experience that leverage is your best friend, which is why I can walk a 950 pound horse on a head halter, and why most heavy dogs can be walked nicely on a Gentle Leader, Halti, or Easy Walk Harness.  These devices don't cause pain, but they put leverage on the human's side. []  Easy Walks don't seem to do that well with some of the sled dogs, some Danes, and with Pits, but they can walk in a GL quite nicely.   Most problems with GL's come from owners not understanding how to acclimate the dog to the head halter and not understanding its proper use (as with any piece of equipment, you need to know how to use it - GL has a video that costs about $15, and it's worth getting if you are a newbie).

I've always wondered about whether the gentle leader is painful. I know a halter will control a horse through leverage - but a horse's nose and poll area (behind the ears) is also very sensitive. When a horse doesn't respond well to a halter, a chain lead is often put over the nose or a smaller diameter rope halter is used by some trainers. I've also talked to trainers that don't care for hackamores or bosals (bitless bridles) because they believe that nosepiece can be more painful than a bit. (If you think dog training has a lot of differing theories - try horse training!)

Every time I see that narrow strip of nylon over a dog's nose, I wonder how sensitive that area is. I have seen Cletus the cat hanging off Lucy's side by his claws and Lucy is still having fun and playing, but a swat to the muzzle will send her crying and end the playtime. I suppose, like all things, it depends on the dog and the handler. I do tend to agree with Suzanne Clothier's opinions on head halters and prong collars.

ORIGINAL: jenhuedepohl

I've always wondered about whether the gentle leader is painful. I know a halter will control a horse through leverage - but a horse's nose and poll area (behind the ears) is also very sensitive. When a horse doesn't respond well to a halter, a chain lead is often put over the nose or a smaller diameter rope halter is used by some trainers. I've also talked to trainers that don't care for hackamores or bosals (bitless bridles) because they believe that nosepiece can be more painful than a bit. (If you think dog training has a lot of differing theories - try horse training!)

Every time I see that narrow strip of nylon over a dog's nose, I wonder how sensitive that area is. I have seen Cletus the cat hanging off Lucy's side by his claws and Lucy is still having fun and playing, but a swat to the muzzle will send her crying and end the playtime. I suppose, like all things, it depends on the dog and the handler. I do tend to agree with Suzanne Clothier's opinions on head halters and prong collars.

I used to be a horse trainer in the 70's and 80's and I know what you're talking about.  With hacks, bits and bosals, it's all about the skill of the rider's hands, but obviously, if you make a mistake, you'd rather be doing it with the horse in mullen mouth snaffle than a twisted wire snaffle.  Recently, I started clicker training my horse, and lo and behold, he has a really good "stay" at the stall door!  Bits act on the bars of the horse's jaw, which is very sensitive.  Bosals act on the nasal area, also sensitive. So, a light hand is imperative for either.
The GL rests on the dog's nose, but not as near the nostrils, as a bosal would on a horse.  And it applies pressure at the back of the occiput, an area less likely to be injured as the laryngeal area.  If animals must work with us, we are bound to use equipment to make that a possibility.  But, we must always aim for the least, the lightest, and the most humane.  I think that the GL, properly applied, is very humane compared to other forms of equipment.  But, we always aim for training to take the onus off of equipment to control the dog. 

Head halters can be dangerous, but that usually happens when someone mistakenly lets a dog out on more than a couple of feet of leash, and it snaps his head when he hits the end.  If you read the instructions, GL's are not intended for use other than while the dog is walking right by the handler's side.

I'm really thankful that someone pointed out to me the safety concern with head halters on dogs who lunge unexpectedly, because that's what made me decide once and for all that I was going to train Marlowe on his flat collar or tracking harness and not use any other equipment. I was really at my wits' end for a couple weeks with his lunging, and ruling out special equipment forced me to really think logically and deeply about what I could to do train him out of this behavior with just his regular walking gear. I'm really glad I was forced to do that because it really wasn't that big of an ordeal to train him, it just took patience and consistency and understanding his motivations.

I'm sure glad that hound got a patient person like you for an owner! []

A friend of mine is the top local horse trainer where I live. She went to a clinic or watched a video awhile back and described a trainer doing slide stops, spins, key-holes...all without any tack besides a loop around the horses neck. Pretty cool.
 
I potty-trained one of my own horses with classical (associative) conditioning, completely on accident. He always had to pee when we got back from a ride, and would do so when I tied him up by a certain tree. I'm sure emptying his bladder was a huge relief and was a very "rewarding" experience. Pretty soon he would stretch out and at least try to "go", every time I tied him up there.
 
It was very handy in keeping his stall cleaner!
 
I doubt I would ever be able to ride a horse in only a halter and lead rope on the public roads or on the trails, and don't know of anyone who does this. But, it's true that the better I got at communicating with and handling horses, the less bit I needed for the aspect of control and safety.
 
 

ORIGINAL: spiritdogs

I'm sure glad that hound got a patient person like you for an owner! []

 
I second that!  Hounds are special and though pain insensitive, can be quite sensitive to verbal corrections.

ORIGINAL: Xerxes

ORIGINAL: spiritdogs

I'm sure glad that hound got a patient person like you for an owner! []

I second that! Hounds are special and though pain insensitive, can be quite sensitive to verbal corrections.

This is exactly how Ella is, and she isn't a hound.
She had an infected sore on her neck that we took her to the vet for (well, one on her paw, I didn't notice the one on her neck until I switched her collars this morning[] ) and you would have NEVER known it.

But yeah, if she wants to pull, prongs won't really phase her, but a harsh verbal correction would send her away with her tail tucked inbetween her legs.

I tried the GL with Max a couple of years ago and we used it for 3 to 4 months.  The poor dog actually got depressed.  He'd stop every 10 feet or so and roll  his face on the ground trying to get it off.  He'd get all excited about seeing the leash and knowing he was going for a walk, but when he saw the GL in my hand he'd kind of hunch down and turn his head away.  He really wanted to go for that walk, but if it meant wearing the GL, he'd rather not.  I really felt bad about ruining his walk for him, so I gave up on it. He did a lot better with the SENSE-ation harness, but he grew out of it before too long.
 
Joyce

But yeah, if she wants to pull, prongs won't really phase her, but a harsh verbal correction would send her away with her tail tucked inbetween her legs.

I didn't even really have to go there with Marlowe either. I just really had to sit and think deeply about what exactly he was doing and why, what was rewarding about it for him (if it wasn't rewarding, he wouldn't keep on doing it, even though he was hanging himself constantly and not getting the squirrell regardless) and how I could tweek the self-reward system already in place around the edges to shape a more acceptable behavior. Turns out, stopping and watching the squirrells frolick from a sitting position was almost as rewarding as the lunging and choking and once Marlowe realized that actual squirrel chasing was completely off the table, he began to choose to sit and watch rather than lunge and choke. With of course a lot of coaxing and strong advise from me! But I never had to yell at him or issue any kind of correction. Just stop, place him into a sit (some assistance required at first), allow him to watch as long as he wanted, then regain his attention with a treat and praise, and continue on. Rinse, repeat. I was actually pretty resigned to that always being the way it would be with him, that our walks would include a few stop-and-watch moments. But as it turns out, he began to be able to keep it together in the presence of squirrells (did I mention we live in a section of town called Squirrell Hill?) without having to do that, and we could stop and then continue our walk even with the squirrell still frolicking about in full view, and then after a while we didn't have to stop at all and he was able to just calmly walk right on by.

He's a smart little guy that Marlowe. And I'm not sure I would have ever had the opportunity to learn with him if I'd jumped to equipment as I was about to before a few people urged me to stop and think first. Not saying that's what anyone here has done, but I think that's the motivation behind making sure people have thought first and tried other things when someone brings up the possibility of getting some equipment.

ORIGINAL: fuzzy_dogs_mom

I tried the GL with Max a couple of years ago and we used it for 3 to 4 months.  The poor dog actually got depressed.  He'd stop every 10 feet or so and roll  his face on the ground trying to get it off.  He'd get all excited about seeing the leash and knowing he was going for a walk, but when he saw the GL in my hand he'd kind of hunch down and turn his head away.  He really wanted to go for that walk, but if it meant wearing the GL, he'd rather not.  I really felt bad about ruining his walk for him, so I gave up on it. He did a lot better with the SENSE-ation harness, but he grew out of it before too long.
 
Joyce

And, IMO, you did exactly the right thing.  If you have properly acclimated a dog to the GL, and it doesn't work for them, the next piece of humane equipment might, as it did for you. 
FYI, the Easy Walk is similar to the Sense-ation, and comes in more sizes.

we've been clicker-training the horses-- it's really handy to have horses that come when called and have rock-solid stays.  But the reason people can walk a horse in a halter has nothing to do with the halter-- it's the training. People just don't tolerate bad behavior in horses the way they do in dogs. A horse who dragged people around on the lead rope would immediately get a chain over his nose and some very firm lessons in proper walking. If people never allowed their puppies to drag them around from day one no one would need a prong collar.

ORIGINAL: mudpuppy

If people never allowed their puppies to drag them around from day one no one would need a prong collar.

 
I agree 100%