Prong collars

I'm fine with the proper use of prong collars, but I have to say, the first time I checked out the leerburg site, it scared the crap out of me... >O_o;<

ORIGINAL: spiritdogs

Actually, if I were going to recommend a trainer to inform someone about prongs, it wouldn't be Leerburg, it would be Suzanne Clothier.  I try not to use or advocate prongs, but compared to choke collars they are certainly more humane.  At least they release when the dog stops pulling, unlike a choke, which often simply tightens until the handler can regain some slack in the leash.  I wouldn't melt them down, I'd get a magic wand and convert them to Gentle Leaders complete with training video & I'd hope that people would have the patience and dedication that you do toward seeing that they don't unknowingly injure their dogs or break the cooperative bond between them and their dogs.

 
Sorry, I should have made it clearer, I'm not recommending that as a good site for a newbie to that kind of collar which is what it looked like.  It just had lots of pretty pictures on it so anyone unfamiliar with the equipment could see what I meant.  DUH!!!!!  Silly me.

I'm not a fan of Leerburg, either. But proper use of a prong collar does not imply being a fan of Leerburg. Unless someone is trying to start a "debate" for the sake of debating.
 

I don't think anyone was trying to do that.  But, any time a site is offered as a resource, and and a member of the forum thinks there are questionable methods or philosophies there, it doesn't hurt to express the caveat so that others can be appropriately skeptical, or investigate further.  We do that on both sides of the training coin, and I think it fosters healthy inquisitiveness on the part of those who are new to training, so they don't necessarily take as gospel the first methodology that is offered up to them.  Bottom line is that we all should be thinking in terms of what's best for our dogs, so my advice is to be as educated as possible, even about sites or methods that you don't find helpful, so that you can at least speak intelligently as to why you do or do not find them helpful, and for what reason.  

Sorry Ron but I love debate.  I do think it's good for people to debate on here so anyone who asks a question gets more than one side of it.  But I love deabte about behaviour, psychology, training - because the subject fascinates me.  Mind you, I wouldn't get into a debate about prong collars.  I just don't like them and there's an end to it.  Not really the kind of debate you can get your teeth into really.

Oh, oh, oh! That reminds me!
I walked Ella around the block today with her martingale collar on and while it's going to take a little bit of work, I'm thinking that prong is going away!

All the schutzhund people I've met, plus other plain old "pet trainers" advocate the pinch collar fit high on the neck.  That's what they say is the proper fit.  People may not like WHY it works, but placing it lower on the neck just isn't correct.

I'm not a fan of the owner either, but he does have some good articles and decent videos (though I'll take Ivan Balabonov over Leerburg anyday for training vids).  His site is also geared for the serious schutzhund competitor, not Average Joe "get my dog to heel!" 

ORIGINAL: Xeph

All the schutzhund people I've met, plus other plain old "pet trainers" advocate the pinch collar fit high on the neck.  That's what they say is the proper fit.  People may not like WHY it works, but placing it lower on the neck just isn't correct.

I'm not a fan of the owner either, but he does have some good articles and decent videos (though I'll take Ivan Balabonov over Leerburg anyday for training vids).  His site is also geared for the serious schutzhund competitor, not Average Joe "get my dog to heel!" 

Suzanne Clothier, Gottfried Dildei and Sheila Booth are trainers who work with serious competitors, too, if you want the other side of that coin.
Steve White has 32 years of police K-9 training (started with the Koehler method), and you ought to see his latest video.  He is swinging toward the positive, too. 

Max wears a prong and it really does seem to  help  him walk a little more nicely.  He doesn't wear it high and I'm pretty sure it doesn't cause him any pain at all (he gets very excited when he sees it coming out of the drawer[]).  He still manages to take the occasional lunge at the squirrels and he certainly doesn't yelp like anything is hurting him ... so I probably don't have it on right. Whenever I've gone back  to the flat collar for walks, he pulls ahead like a freight train. I think at the most, the prong just causes a mild discomfort when he pulls, but not enough to keep him from going after those squirrels.
 
Joyce

I find talk of prong collars interesting, because I'd never heard of them before I joined this forum. I understand they've been banned here in Australia. Apparently the RSPCA took care of that, the same people responsible for my beloved anti docking/cropping legislation. So I'm not sure where I stand on it. A lot of people are advocating the use of the prong collar, but then, I'm yet to disagree with anything the RSPCA over here declares to be unnecessary pain for animals. I can see how it would be useful, and even better than the check chains that are still so widely used (and misused) over here, but then, the RSPCA still hold a lot of power when it comes to animal rights because they've always been practical, fair, and backed everything they say up with plenty of study.

So, I dunno. We're coping over here with just the easywalk harnesses and Haltis. I wish the RSPCA would tackle check chains as well. Maybe it's next on the list.

Crusher has 3 collars.  A flat for when he is tied out to pee or just to cool off.  He wears a choke when he's in the house because its something I can grab if I need to(he likes to bolt once in a while if the door is left open too long).  I hate the line that his flat collar leaves in his ruff and the choke doesnt leave one.  Thats just a personal superficial thing with me.  And I use a prong when we walk.  Crusher has been trained to pull.  Not only by accident, but also on purpose if you get my point.  He is a sled dog after all, but we never made the collar to harness and back again transition properly.  I stupidly quit walking him on his normal collar while he was training in harness and by the time the season was over he was incorrigable.  I finally started using a prong on him when we moved here.  So many people around here have small dogs, that I needed him to listen and listen now.  I've never had to correct him with it.  As soon as he hits the end of the leash he lets off and falls back.  And with all the fur around his neck, he can't possibly be too hurt by it.  I've tried it on myself and its a pretty even pressure.

I have a "Pit Bull", and I use a "prong" collar.
 
From what I've read/learned/experienced, prongs are meant to simulate a bite from a "dominate" or "alpha" dog, which in this case, is the human.
 
A mother dog bites her puppy as if to give a correction, and that's in a sense the same way we are trying to use the prong for; correction by the dominant one.
 
It works for me. It doesn't hurt her, and I do not use it incorrectly, neither does anyone in my class.
 
My trainer trains Police Dogs in our county, is a breeder, and a trainer, and has used prong collars, and has been very successful if I don't say so myself.
 
Let me just say this: Prongs aren't for everybody. But SOMETIMES, with strong breeds such as Pitties, Rotts, Shepherds, etc., a stronger "control" device is helpful or even necessary.
If used correctly, I think they are a very helpful tool.

I've always learned prongs should be high up on the neck because it requires a much lesser action to get the same point across, therefore being much more humane than having to do strong pops on a lower part of the neck.

I have a prong for Bran but i don't use it anymore.  It turned her into a perfect heeling dog, but she was "shut down" and I just don't like her like that.  I'd rather her be pulling a little than depressed during what's supposed to be our fun time.

As far as it hurting, have you ever tried it on yourself?  I did before buying it, and it didn't hurt at all even with stronger motions than i would ever use on a dog.  It's mostly just pressure.

That assumes tho that you feel the need to use collar pops with a prong.  I never have.  And I got the same great results by letting the tightening of the collar self correct Thor without applying any corrections myself.  Oh, and he didn't get shut down.

I think the reason that the RSPCA in Australia acted to ban them is precisely because, used improperly, they are cruel.  A prong collar is designed to work by tightening as the dog pulls and relaxing when the dog places no tension on the leash.  It should not be used "to make a point" by "popping" or "correcting".  In reality, the slip collar, or choke, is more inhumane used improperly than the prong is, since the prong at least relaxes when the dog does.  Sometimes, a choke gets tight and does not release when the dog gives.  To be honest, the fault I find with most of these devices is that inexperienced handlers use them to make up for the fact that they have not yet learned to train the behaviors they want from the dog correctly.  A skilled trainer seldom has to resort to management equipment, and the best thing a newbie can do, IMHO, is to learn from such a person, so that they don't either.  Many of the dogs I see wearing prongs and chokes are adolescent dogs or older that have not been to a good obedience course, or the owner stopped with the first course.  Training a dog takes time.