Screaming during piano practice - - AAARGHHH!

Why can't you remove him from the room? 

tiffy

Why can't you remove him from the room?

They can, but that doesn't solve the problem, just moves it further away.  

We have a similar issue with Jaia. He screams like a lady when he gets excited and it's so cute that we unintentionally have reinforced it by looking at him, smiling and laughing at him. The best thing that works for us is to ignore it until he settles and then praise him or greet him. No cookies involved. But that's not going to be the answer for the OP because the dog doesn't settle as long as the piano's playing.

Personally, I wouldn't involve treats at all during your daughter's practice, for fear that he would make the association that practice time means cookie time. I do love this suggestion.

luvmyswissy

Although I never tried this maybe desensitizing with a tape of piano music playing on in the house all day long and making it louder everyday - starting off very low might help.   You can incorporate some training during this time to, when he is quiet approach him and treat him ... 

And I also would try Cesar's approach.  

I believe its a matter of desensitizing the dog, which will take time and work.  Love the idea of playing piano music all day long, starting off soft and gradually turning up the volume.  This could take a week, maybe two.

I also think that you should drop the treat idea...unless you are going to remove him from the room, then you can give him something to occupy himself.  Frozen treats, kongs, that kind of thing.

We have had great success with Heidi using a similar correction method that CM uses.  She gets excited when we use the rake for example...wants to "kill" it.  So, we took the time and effort to have her on a leash, put her in a sit/stay and use leash and verbal corrections when she goes after it. 

Also, (and not that I'm saying you should do this with your situation)...but we are temporarily using an E-collar on her for training.  She is an extremely hard tempered, willful dog, so we needed something stronger than just a leash correction for her.  The results are great.

Good luck and know that it won't be an overnight solution.

 This is just my opinion, but this is not a big training issue. Tootsie attacks the vaccuum when it comes out. I have to vacuumm and doing it with her attacking it is a pain. My solution, remove her from the situation.( sp?)

tiffy, I think it all depends on what the owner wants. A dog can be removed from the situation, but for me? To have to round up 4 dogs and put them somewhere for storage while I vacuum the house is entirely impractical. And besides, I would be concerned about WHY the dog is afraid (threatened, bothered by) the vacuum cleaner.

Besides, according to the OP:

purpleruby

It doesn't help to put him anywhere else in the house, or outside.

I take that to mean that he still screams, even if he's in the other room or outside. So, removing the dog from the situation isn't a solution in this case. I take it there's a lot more piano playing going on in the OPs house than one might vacuum. The dog would end up being shut up a good deal of time and that's not hardly fair, either.

tiffy

 This is just my opinion, but this is not a big training issue. Tootsie attacks the vaccuum when it comes out. I have to vacuumm and doing it with her attacking it is a pain. My solution, remove her from the situation.( sp?)

I agree with you in that some dogs just can't handle a situation or something so yummy it makes them go somewhat berzerk.  Not making the stimulus available to the dog is certainly an option and one that I have practiced.  I also agree with you that this is not a big training issue per se.  IMO, it is a failed obedience training issue in that when given a command, the dog ignores it.  I would go back to the strengthening the basic obedience command and a good proof test would be when the dog is quiet during piano playing. 

FourIsCompany

tiffy

Why can't you remove him from the room?

 

They can, but that doesn't solve the problem, just moves it further away.  

It solves the problem if the dog would prefer to be in the room.  He can only stay if he's quiet. Most dogs would prefer to stay in the room.  Some dogs wouldn't be bothered, but I'm guessing they would be in the minority.

Chuffy

It solves the problem if the dog would prefer to be in the room.

Did you see that the dog still screams even if he's in another room? Or outside? How is the problem solved if the dog is in another room screaming?  

tiffy

Why can't you remove him from the room? 

FourIsCompany

Chuffy

It solves the problem if the dog would prefer to be in the room.

 

Did you see that the dog still screams even if he's in another room? Or outside? How is the problem solved if the dog is in another room screaming?  

Yes I saw that.

I am not suggesting just remove him from the room, end of.  It's already been stated that he still makes a racket when shut away.  I'm suggesting using the shutting him out/letting him back in as negative punishment/positive reward.  Granted you might have to wait longer than 20 seconds - you might have to wait several minutes for a moment of quiet that you are able to "reward" (by allowing him back in).  But the chances of suuccessfully achieving that "moment" are increased by a) starting over with the dog not knowing rewards are present and fading them out promptly and b) attempting to teach a "quiet" cue, possibly in conjunction with "speak".  Just IMO.

Chuffy

I am not suggesting just remove him from the room, end of. 

LSTM  << (Chuffy, do like this? It's mostly for you.)  

I didn't mean shutting him out indefinitely. Tootsie, can now be in the room because I shut her out until she learned to settle. It sounds to me like this dog wants and gets attention and treats when he screams. Remove him until he settles and bring him  back in. Rinse and repeat.

It sounds to me like this dog wants and gets attention and treats when he screams.

I agree. All the action is at the piano, and wow, does he ever get rewarded heavily for screaming- attention, treats, talked to. People so often forget that to many dogs even negative attention such as "punishments" are highly rewarding. You've inadvertently reinforced a behavior chain.

I would treat it the way I would treat crate-screaming: you ignore it. And it extinguishes.

mudpuppy

It sounds to me like this dog wants and gets attention and treats when he screams.

I agree. All the action is at the piano, and wow, does he ever get rewarded heavily for screaming- attention, treats, talked to. People so often forget that to many dogs even negative attention such as "punishments" are highly rewarding. You've inadvertently reinforced a behavior chain.

I would treat it the way I would treat crate-screaming: you ignore it. And it extinguishes.

I agree that is almost impossible not to reinforce the behavior chain.  I am not seeing how you could use anything positive or rewarding to change the behavior.  I can see CM's use of correction working and I can see, barely see if I squint, ignoring working.  Myself, I would strength the obedience commands and then use a correction.  The stronger the dog is in obedience, the less of a correctin is needed.

mudpuppy

It sounds to me like this dog wants and gets attention and treats when he screams.

I agree. All the action is at the piano, and wow, does he ever get rewarded heavily for screaming- attention, treats, talked to. People so often forget that to many dogs even negative attention such as "punishments" are highly rewarding. You've inadvertently reinforced a behavior chain.

I would treat it the way I would treat crate-screaming: you ignore it. And it extinguishes.

I agree that this might be a possibility.  There are, sad to say, some dogs that do not EVER stop crate-screaming despite being totally ignored all the time.  Most of the time, though, they continue because the HUMAN can't continue to ignore (wants immediate or reasonably immediate gratification and not willing to wait for the "extinction burst" to give way to total extinguishment.) Not many average owners have the stick-to-itiveness to do this, as you well know.  But, it's certainly worth a try. 

I also think Chuffy has a point, and that is worth a try, too.