Dog Community

Screaming during piano practice - - AAARGHHH!

Posted : 4/27/2008 10:00:56 AM

My daughters both take piano lessons, and with a recital coming up, they really need to practice a lot. But Rudy doesn't enjoy it as much as I do. He screams. In fact, it sounds like he's saying, "OW! OW! OW!" - he screams so loudly it hurts our ears. I've posted about this before (maybe on another board), and tried positive reinforcement - - giving him treats while my DDs play, as long as he doesn't scream. It worked. The problem is, it's been months, and I can't always be there when they play. It doesn't help to put him anywhere else in the house, or outside. We can't always have someone else take him for a walk every single time someone wants to play piano. Piano is a big part of our lives, and we NEED to be able to play whenever we want, for as long as we want. WITHOUT the screaming dog. (FWIW, he also screams like this when Hannah Montana sings her theme song, when church bells ring, and when the fire trucks go by) I'm at my wit's end. Any ideas??

espencer

Posted : 4/27/2008 2:58:13 PM

Idea:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FOE9VdWIfwE

Chuffy

Posted : 4/27/2008 3:15:03 PM

Is he scared or just excited by the noise? Souds like it could be anxiety. have you tried keeping a couple of yummy well packed kongs in the freezer? distract him with one of those when its time to play the piano. This is more than just a distraction technique, chewing is actually a stress reliever for dogs, so if you can get him to chew while the piano is played you might be abe to change his emotional state when the piano is played... make sense?

Kiera Carlson

Posted : 4/27/2008 4:48:29 PM

Very interesting! I love the Dog Whisperer, and have never seen that episode.

Kiera Carlson

Posted : 4/27/2008 4:50:37 PM

Chuffy
Is he scared or just excited by the noise? Souds like it could be anxiety. have you tried keeping a couple of yummy well packed kongs in the freezer? distract him with one of those when its time to play the piano. This is more than just a distraction technique, chewing is actually a stress reliever for dogs, so if you can get him to chew while the piano is played you might be abe to change his emotional state when the piano is played... make sense?

I don't know (scared or excited) - - he seems like he's sounding an alert, ya know? I don't think he's in *pain* (it doesn't hurt his ears), because he runs TOWARD the piano. We've tried giving him frozen kongs and pig ears and chew sticks, but they're not good enough at distracting him from screaming. The only thing that works is for me to stand right there and keep giving him little broken pieces of "cookies".

luvmyswissy

Posted : 4/27/2008 5:35:16 PM

Sometimes when we use treats we reinforce the behavior you don't want. For example, when I was teaching my dog not to chase my cat onto the couch I used treats. What happened was my dog would chase the cat, up on the couch, he would jump on the couch and when I called him down off the couch I rewarded him. What happened was the act of "jumping on the couch" was the prerequisite to the treat - not what I wanted. I inadvertently was rewarding the jumping on the couch. Maybe your dog is finding that when he barks and stops, he gets treated instead he must get treated only if he doesn't bark at all.

Kiera Carlson

Posted : 4/27/2008 8:00:32 PM

luvmyswissy
Sometimes when we use treats we reinforce the behavior you don't want. For example, when I was teaching my dog not to chase my cat onto the couch I used treats. What happened was my dog would chase the cat, up on the couch, he would jump on the couch and when I called him down off the couch I rewarded him. What happened was the act of "jumping on the couch" was the prerequisite to the treat - not what I wanted. I inadvertently was rewarding the jumping on the couch. Maybe your dog is finding that when he barks and stops, he gets treated instead he must get treated only if he doesn't bark at all.

Yeah, we've had it backfire on us too. Rudy used to be quite a little thief, grabbing anything he could get his mouth on and running all over the place with it while we chased him like fools. We started giving him a cookie in exchange for the forbidden item. That only seemed to make him a much more eager thief.

luvmyswissy

Posted : 4/27/2008 8:16:08 PM

I'm not saying its a bad protocol just that we can do it incorrectly without realizing it. I don't know if you are or not but there are many people on this forum who could probably talk to the proper time to treat using rewards.

I don't think it hurts his ears. I think that dogs know what gets them attention, any attention even negative attention is attention sometimes. If this is big deal, which I sense it is then there is probably a lot of attention given to the dog during this time even if it is, talking, yelling, treating, walking, being brought outside etc. He knows that if he behaves like this during the time he hears that music then he gets everyone attention. Smile

Although I never tried this maybe desensitizing with a tape of piano music playing on in the house all day long and making it louder everyday - starting off very low might help. You can incorporate some training during this time to, when he is quiet approach him and treat him and if he starts to act up walk away and lower the music, ignore him for awhile and then treat him for being quiet again and raise the volume a bit.

mudpuppy

Posted : 4/28/2008 12:03:37 PM

We've tried giving him frozen kongs and pig ears and chew sticks, but they're not good enough at distracting him from screaming. The only thing that works is for me to stand right there and keep giving him little broken pieces of "cookies".

So if he screams, he gets frozen kongs and pig ears and chew sticks and treats? and the more he screams the more goodies he gets? I'd put in some ear plugs, and play the piano and wait him out. He stops screaming, he gets a goodie. Gradual extend time he must not-scream before getting a goodie.

spiritdogs

Posted : 4/28/2008 12:24:52 PM

mudpuppy
We've tried giving him frozen kongs and pig ears and chew sticks, but they're not good enough at distracting him from screaming. The only thing that works is for me to stand right there and keep giving him little broken pieces of "cookies".

So if he screams, he gets frozen kongs and pig ears and chew sticks and treats? and the more he screams the more goodies he gets? I'd put in some ear plugs, and play the piano and wait him out. He stops screaming, he gets a goodie. Gradual extend time he must not-scream before getting a goodie.

In theory, mudpuppy is describing the correct way to reward the dog for quiet, however, some frequencies of music DO hurt dogs' ears (one of mine is sensitive to the harmonica), although other dogs aren't bothered, and some probably interpret "music" as howling, and will join in, since they are hardwired to howl with the pack. Perhaps you can use doggy ear plugs (ask your vet - they are available for thunder-phobic dogs) just to insure that your kids' activities aren't causing actual pain to their furry friend.

mudpuppy

Posted : 4/28/2008 1:00:01 PM

he'd probably run AWAY from the piano rather than towards it if it were painful? might be a "group howl" thing. Lots of dogs howl whenever they hear sirens.

Kiera Carlson

Posted : 4/28/2008 3:33:41 PM

mudpuppy
We've tried giving him frozen kongs and pig ears and chew sticks, but they're not good enough at distracting him from screaming. The only thing that works is for me to stand right there and keep giving him little broken pieces of "cookies".

So if he screams, he gets frozen kongs and pig ears and chew sticks and treats? and the more he screams the more goodies he gets? I'd put in some ear plugs, and play the piano and wait him out. He stops screaming, he gets a goodie. Gradual extend time he must not-scream before getting a goodie.

NO! I start the piano practice session by telling him what a good boy he is, and giving him a treat. The piano playing starts, and if he doesn't cry right away, I give him another treat and tell him he's a good boy. If he starts to cry, I say no and ignore him. If he stops crying and stays quiet, he gets another treat. That's usually what happens: if the cookies are there, he usually doesn't cry at all. He's smart. But I just can't get him to be quiet *without* the treats. During the other times when he screams (fire sirens, church bells, Hannah Montana...), we just ignore him. There's nothing we can do, so we do nothing.

Chuffy

Posted : 4/28/2008 3:46:48 PM

Maybe the treats are part of the "quiet" signal? The dog shouldn't know whether there are any treats on offer when the lesson starts. I would try a few clicker sessions to mark moments of quiet, using "dummy runs" at the piano, to set him up for success and then start over with rewarding for quiet at piano practise. The rate of reinforcement should be HIGH initially, but it should fade out noticeably as the dog "gets it". The rate and value of the treats should vary hugely as you progress with him, that way you will get past this "plateau".

Another thing to consider is teaching "speak" and "quiet", so that you have an on/off switch. If the treats are his "signal" to remain quiet, youcould then replace them with the word "quiet" at the beginning of the lesson. The treats can still be faded out but you could still use the word if you need to.

I think you should stop saying "no". I think you should leave a trailing line on him and if he's quiet he gets rewards (whether it be food treats, praise, petting, chewies etc.) If he makes a racket, lead him gently away and shut him out of the room for 20 seconds or so. Again some dummy runs might be useful so you dont have too many disrupted piano lessons. Let him back in if quiet, lead him away if not.

agilebasenji

Posted : 4/28/2008 3:58:34 PM

Have you thought about using peanut butter or squeeze cheese for the treats? (Really hard to howl with a mouth full of pbutter.)

spiritdogs

Posted : 4/28/2008 6:15:20 PM

Sorry, mudpuppy - I missed the part about him going toward the piano. Thanks for pointing that out.

Chuffy
Maybe the treats are part of the "quiet" signal? The dog shouldn't know whether there are any treats on offer when the lesson starts. I would try a few clicker sessions to mark moments of quiet, using "dummy runs" at the piano, to set him up for success and then start over with rewarding for quiet at piano practise. The rate of reinforcement should be HIGH initially, but it should fade out noticeably as the dog "gets it". The rate and value of the treats should vary hugely as you progress with him, that way you will get past this "plateau".
Another thing to consider is teaching "speak" and "quiet", so that you have an on/off switch. If the treats are his "signal" to remain quiet, youcould then replace them with the word "quiet" at the beginning of the lesson. The treats can still be faded out but you could still use the word if you need to.
I think you should stop saying "no". I think you should leave a trailing line on him and if he's quiet he gets rewards (whether it be food treats, praise, petting, chewies etc.) If he makes a racket, lead him gently away and shut him out of the room for 20 seconds or so. Again some dummy runs might be useful so you dont have too many disrupted piano lessons. Let him back in if quiet, lead him away if not.

I like all these suggestions and totally agree with not bothering to say "no". The use of commands to get him to perform an alternate behavior, or the isolation (removal of something he wants - proximity to the piano, or your company) would likely make more sense to the dog.