Constructional Aggression Treatment (4iC)

I've heard *very* positive reviews of CAT and am quite interested in the idea myself.  I do think that if not implemented well it does have the potential to make things much worse and thus timing and set up are going to need to be very very well thought out and executed.

I've thought about trying it with Maggie but I just don't have the set up to do it right now. 

This is based on the work of Ruiz-Rosales & Snider (University of North Texas), and I think it has useful application in cases where aggression is a learned behavior. 

stardog85

I do think that if not implemented well it does have the potential to make things much worse

 

I agree. I'm so fortunate to have an instructor who is very experienced (along with her dog) in this exercise.

Spiritdogs, can you say some more? Do you have thoughts about my situation? B'asia came to us like she is at 4.5 months old. She raised hell with the other dogs here for the first week. Finally, on an intuitive impulse, I just let her out of her crate and  let her interact directly with the other dogs and we haven't had a problem since. Her breeder did say that there was one dog there that B'asia also raised hell with.

FourIsCompany

I agree. I'm so fortunate to have an instructor who is very experienced (along with her dog) in this exercise.

Where did the instructor get the education to have the experience?  Attending the seminar, viewing the dvd's, site demonostration.  The reason why I ask is maybe the instructor can share the dvd's or the white paper with you.  Although your link is a nice summary, there is a lot more involved in the treatment and it may be helpful if you have more of an understanding as you apply the treatment to your individual dog.

DPU

Where did the instructor get the education to have the experience?

I don't know where she got her education. Perhaps right here in town, as we have a University here. But she has a lot of successful experience, which is most important to me. She and her dog have done the exercise successfully with many aggressive dogs. I won't be working with my dog without her there as it requires a neutral dog and none of my friends have dogs that I''d be willing to do this with.

FourIsCompany

I won't be working with my dog without her there as it requires a neutral dog and none of my friends have dogs that I''d be willing to do this with.

I would ask since the treatment is relatively new and anyone can follow that nice summary link you provided.  The session can easily be turned into a C&CC desensitizing session and not a shaping procedure where the dog learns alternative behaviors that requires a lower response cost.  Yes, you need a decoy dog and you need an experienced person who will be able to read your dog.  It is best if the experienced person is off to side observing and giving instructions to the deco handler and also observing the behavior of your dog.

That is the start, but the future sessions will require more dogs and also different settings.  As the link says, it is a commitment and you have to stick with it in order to be effective.

Sounds like an interesting approach....kind of like combination desensitizing and reward.  I'd like to hear how B'asia reacts to it.

CoBuHe

Sounds like an interesting approach....kind of like combination desensitizing and reward.  I'd like to hear how B'asia reacts to it.

Its quite a different approach, using operant to teach alternative behaviors.  And what I like about the treatment is the reward is the environment or the stimulus, not food.

FourIsCompany

Spiritdogs, can you say some more? Do you have thoughts about my situation? B'asia came to us like she is at 4.5 months old. She raised hell with the other dogs here for the first week. Finally, on an intuitive impulse, I just let her out of her crate and  let her interact directly with the other dogs and we haven't had a problem since. Her breeder did say that there was one dog there that B'asia also raised hell with.

I am not Spiritdogs but I was wondering how B'asia is when new dogs come to your home and is introduced to the pack as a whole and if B'asia misbehaves, she is responsive to you.  If that is a problem, then I think CAT would work well provided the instructor is truly experienced.  If B'asia is ok with other dogs coming onto your property, then it is a generalization problem.

You know, lately it feels like every time someone brings some new way of looking at dogs and the way they behave to my attention, I realise how much that hare of mine really has taught me about animal behaviour in general.

Once again, this sounds very much like the way I try to handle a lot of Kit's behaviour. When he was very young he tried biting me one day to see if it would stop me from trying to pick him up. It didn't and he never did it again. With Kat and Bonnie, the domestic rabbits, they all went through a similar discovery. They try biting to see if it will make you leave them alone. The moment you retreat they feel very satisfied and lo and behold you have a biter on your hands. Bonnie still nips because she's socially retarded and thinks that's how you show someone you think they're OK, but that one's been harder to combat because she expects you to love on her when she nips you and gets offended when she just gets put back in the cage. Rabbit brains are odd sometimes. However, we have been working on teaching her that nipping does not lead to more loving, but resting one's chin on someone's leg or arm does. That's a natural bunny behaviour as well, so Bonnie came up with it on her own eventually and it's coming easier to her the more we reward it. I think it's the same sort of philosphy.

Anyway, I do think there are things you have to watch with this kind of method. I think you have to be sure the aggression really is learned. When Kit grunts and boxes these days, it's not because he's learnt it works. He's learnt it doesn't, but he does it anyway because by that stage he's too frightened to do anything but react. He reacts with flight or fight.

On the other hand, Penny snaps when she wants to be left alone and it works like a charm. She does it because it works, not because she's gone over the edge and is just reacting.

From what I understand of B'asia and her problem, I would reckon it is a learned behaviour, but I don't know because she's not my dog and I don't know her. If it turned out that somehow she was behaving the way she was because she was going over the edge, I don't think she would learn from this method and it might even make it worse.

Incidentally, I have been toying with the idea for a long time now that I might be able to teach Kit that icky things will go away if he hears a click from a clicker. I was thinking if I could keep him below his threshold so he didn't get as far as dashing off, he would learn to associate the click with the icky thing going away and I could transition the click to mean there's nothing to be worried about because the icky thing is going away even though the icky thing will first come closer. I'm not sure if it would ultimately work, but it could make life less stressful for the little guy, and that would be worth it.

I'm not sure how far they push the dog in this method. Do they push far enough to trigger an aggressive display, or do they only push far enough to make the dog anxious?

ETA: Oh, right, goal is no aggressive outbursts ever. Great! It makes perfect sense to me.
 

corvus

I'm not sure how far they push the dog in this method. Do they push far enough to trigger an aggressive display, or do they only push far enough to make the dog anxious?

ETA: Oh, right, goal is no aggressive outbursts ever. Great! It makes perfect sense to me.
 

I don't know about bunnies but when my African Grey Parrot would bite he sure would get a reaction because it hurt like the dickens.

I don't think push is the proper term, but expose would be better.  A base line for both dogs is established.  The decoy dog moves forward slowly and stops when the experience observer sees an aggressiive reaction in the dog.  The decoy dog will stay put until the dog offers another behavior, any kind of behavior and then at that time, the decoy goes away.  While the decoy dog is retreating and if the dog reacts aggressively, the decoy returns to the original reactive position until the dog offers the other behavior again.  Several trials are then done by the decoy dog approaching and getting close to the baseline and when there is no reaction by the dog, the decoy retreats, thus reinforcing the new behavior.

DPU

That is the start, but the future sessions will require more dogs and also different settings.  As the link says, it is a commitment and you have to stick with it in order to be effective.

I'm taking a 7 week course with her and can bring her twice a week. I'm assuming we'll be working with other dogs in the class, but I don't know. The GOAL is to get her through the class and earn her CGC. If she never goes beyond that, it's fine with me. (Actually, if she doesn't get her CGC, it's fine with me.) 

DPU

And what I like about the treatment is the reward is the environment or the stimulus, not food.

I also find this very attractive.

DPU

I was wondering how B'asia is when new dogs come to your home and is introduced to the pack as a whole

No other dogs have ever been in our home since B'asia's been here. I'm fairly sure she would flip completely out. When I take her out among other dogs, and she misbehaves, she is somewhat responsive to me. More so now than in the past. The work I've been doing with her is helping.

corvus

From what I understand of B'asia and her problem, I would reckon it is a learned behaviour

How would I know? That's why I was asking spiritdogs to say more (although I'm open to all opinions). How do I know if this is a learned behavior or not? As I said, she's been a spitfire since we've had her. I think it's simply because she wasn't properly socialized as a youngster.

corvus

Do they push far enough to trigger an aggressive display, or do they only push far enough to make the dog anxious?

Yeah, no aggressive displays. Just as with any desensitization technique, you don't want the dog to aggress and add to the "bank" of negative experiences. That's how I understand it anyway.

From what I understand I'll be starting this on Wednesday and I will report here.  

FourIsCompany

No other dogs have ever been in our home since B'asia's been here. I'm fairly sure she would flip completely out. When I take her out among other dogs, and she misbehaves, she is somewhat responsive to me. More so now than in the past. The work I've been doing with her is helping.

Yeah, no aggressive displays. Just as with any desensitization technique, you don't want the dog to aggress and add to the "bank" of negative experiences. That's how I understand it anyway.

This is why I asked about the instructor's education and experience on Dr.Jesus Rosales-Ruiz's Constructional Aggression Treatment.    What you are doing sounds like a very modified version of the treatment and it really does sound to me like C&CC desenstizing.  A baseline is established and that includes the dog aggressively reacting to the other.  How else can you measure progress? 

Also, the protocal calls for the treatment to take place in the environment where dog is reacting.  So if it is in the home, then thats where the treatment takes place.  If its in the dog park, then thats where the treatment takes place.  As I said the treatment is quite involved and safety is paramount.  With this treatment, generalization is an issue and the dog has to be exposed and baselined in different settings.  If your instructor is successful in a classroom setting, the treatment may not work in your home or your dog park.  Plus, I don't see how you can do any homework.  In the dvd's they showed one treatment where there were dozens of sessions but in a short time frame.

 I was just thinking about this and it made me wonder - what effect does exposing a neutral dog to a reactive dog have on the neutral dog over time?  Seems to me that it could really mess that dog up if the human isn't moving the neutral dog away within a reasonable amount of time to avoid rewarding the reactive one...