Constructional Aggression Treatment (4iC)

stardog85

 I was just thinking about this and it made me wonder - what effect does exposing a neutral dog to a reactive dog have on the neutral dog over time?  Seems to me that it could really mess that dog up if the human isn't moving the neutral dog away within a reasonable amount of time to avoid rewarding the reactive one...

I think this is very dog dependent. There are dogs that are pretty bomb-proof, and others that would show emotional wear and tear.

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CAT seems very much like desensitization to me. Trigger happens, dog flips a bit, nothing else happens ...

I think the premise is sound. Sasha does great with dogs who naturally apply the CAT model. She gets pissy and reactive, other dog is totally "whatever," and Sasha starts to calm down. I think exposure to relaxed dogs helps socially anxious dogs learn that they don't NEED to be aggressively defensive.  

FourIsCompany

corvus

From what I understand of B'asia and her problem, I would reckon it is a learned behaviour

How would I know? That's why I was asking spiritdogs to say more (although I'm open to all opinions). How do I know if this is a learned behavior or not? As I said, she's been a spitfire since we've had her. I think it's simply because she wasn't properly socialized as a youngster.

 

Well, I wouldn't bother with trying to work out if it was a learned behaviour or not. I'd concentrate on the nature of the reaction instead, which can tell you a lot anyway. I would think she'd be a good candidate to try it with if her problem behaviour starts gradually and/or increases gradually with proximity to the icky thing. I'd also think she was a good candidate if you didn't completely lose her everytime she's triggered. If you can get her attention back when she's worked up, even for half a second, then I'm inclined to think that regardless of whether it's learned or instinctive, at least you can touch base with her and she can learn. Even with Kit, if I can see he's heading for a panic attack or a mad dash into a wall, I can usually stop whatever is upsetting him before he goes mental. Once he goes mental, there's no reaching him until he comes back to planet Earth on his own. This is purely my opinion, which is pretty skewed due to my own background and experience, but I probably wouldn't go that way with a dog that was just flying off the handle and didn't even hear you or notice your existence, and especially not one that went from zero to flying off the handle very quickly, because I know that Kit does that a lot and it makes it extrememly difficult to avoid the explosions you're trying to avoid. Some days Kit's threshold is ridiculously low and I can't even work out what set him off. Other days you've got to physically push him out of your way. If I had a dog like that, I'd probably resign myself to managing the problem rather than trying  to fix it.

However, every animal is different and I'd quite like to try something like this with Kit. But then, Kit can't hurt anyone (much), and he's better adapted to coping with stress than my domestic animals are.

DPU, it sure is tough when the bites bloody hurt! My last rabbit, when she bit, absolutely meant business and she'd leave blood blisters. I think the important thing is to keep doing what you were doing, even if you withdraw in shock for a moment. I wouldn't want to try it with, say, a snake, though. Or a large adult dog, for that matter. I once saw a pet python on television that would nail anyone that got near her cage. I watched the guy demonstrate what she would do and it was clearly very painful. She was a large python and he'd had to get a couple of her bites stitched in the past. I couldn't believe he had the guts to let her bite him on national television. Anyway, I've seen what an irrate cockatoo can do to someone's hand, so I can just imagine an African Grey! Ouchies. Even our little rosellas hurt when they bite, and my mother used to breed budgies and she says budgie hens draw blood when they bite, too. 

This link here has a description about this treatment written by Kellie Snider, as well as some other information. The page says CAT is based on two things:

1) negative reinforcement; like Corvus said - the "icky thing" goes away when appropriate (non-aggressing/friendly/calm) behavior is presented by the dog, and

2) what behavior analysts would call errorless learning, which is just working sub-threshold and very slowly upping the ante, so that the wrong response (in thise case, reactive behavior) does not occur or occurs minimally.

 I've seen some reports of trainers using the CAT procedure with success on an e-mail group I'm on (and I think there's another completely dedicated to people working with CAT). From what I've read, it sounds very good-  Progress seems to be (relatively) quick, and dogs often end up showing outwardly friendly behaviours to the original trigger. If you want some info about the reports or group/s 4iC, I can PM it to you (or post it in this thread if others are interested).

I really appreciate everyone's interest and participation in this! It's helping me a lot to think through all the angles. Thank you!

DPU

A baseline is established and that includes the dog aggressively reacting to the other.  How else can you measure progress?

A baseline is established, yes. Let me just say that in the past weeks, as I've worked with B'asia in the presence of other dogs, outside the dog park, I've gotten to be EXPERT at recognizing the very first facial changes when she starts to react, and that's when I ask for attention and then praise. So there will be no need to go into the area of barking and lunging. I can catch her way before that. Perhaps I haven't made that clear, but I've been working on desensitizing her on my own for some time now. The only problem is that the other dogs are not "controlled". They're just running around in the park, their owners giving me the hairy eyeball for using "their" park and dogs to work on my dog.

We will measure progress by the signs indicated in the article. (Hopefully) B'asia will perform a different behavior than starting to agress and the control dog will be able to get closer and closer before I see the aforementioned signs in B'asia's face. From the article:

Once we figure out where things begin to get under his skin, then we'll know where and how we want to start working. That place is a good distance farther away than the place where he actually shows upset behavior. We'll probably draw a line there or throw down a marker so we don't forget were it is.

You're right about generalization, DPU. I see what you mean now. She is reacting at the dog park, and that's where the treatment is going to take place. The dog park is also where the classes are. The club here rents the dog park and no other dogs are allowed at that time. All dogs are on-leash. The dog park is the ONLY place she has ever reacted like this. She's fine at the vet and walking downtown and anywhere else in the car, etc. The only homework I'm aware I can do is focus exercises, NILIF, and my regular obedience exercises with her. 

stardog85

what effect does exposing a neutral dog to a reactive dog have on the neutral dog over time?

I have known dogs who seemed to have a specific "calling" in life. Kind of like social worker dogs. One was a "cat" dog. In other words, he desensitized cats to having a dog around. He LOVED cats. And they would hiss and scratch and bat at him and he would lie down and avert his eyes and take it. Eventually, the cat would be curling up in his tummy hair and he would be licking and grooming the cat. It was an amazing thing to see. And every time he saw a cat, he would approach it in a way that didn't scare the cat. His owner (already heavily involved in animal communications) started offering his services to households where the cats and dogs didn't get along. and it worked! The dog didn't seem to suffer. In fact, it seemed like he knew and loved his job.

SO, taking into account that that the dog being worked on rarely if ever gets to the aggression stage, AND the fact that this neutral dog (Sue) has done this so many times without apparent incident, I doubt it has much of a negative effect at all. I can see how that would be a concern if the test dog was snarling and lunging, but as stated above, the demarcation line is a good distance further away than where the dog shows behavior (that we can recognize). The neutral dog will recognize it, but they see dog body language all the time.

Vinia

If you want some info about the reports or group/s 4iC, I can PM it to you (or post it in this thread if others are interested).

If it's something that can be posted in this thread, I would very much like that. I think it would be best for future reference for others right in the thread. Thank you!

I haven't really had enough to say or contribute to this thread but I wanted to support your endeavor and wish you the best of success.

In my own special case, which may not bear any relation to yours, I learned, after a while, that Shadow's behavior around stranger dogs was not actually aggression as much as it was anxiety. Part of it is the breed trait of being aloof, though people-friendly, though he can still be stand-offish from people he doesn't know. The latter is not a problem, just a breed trait. Anyway, yes, the method was to work in the situation that causes the anxiety, such as being in public where other dogs are. And the method was to reward for attention to me and commands at various ranges of distance to the stimulus. Working the range down to a face to face meeting. It's not quite the same thing as what you are talking about. Mine was to reward the calm and non-aggressive behavior in the presence of previously exciting stimuli, as opposed to making the icky thing go away, which I think will work well, too.

So, bravo to you for really thinking this thing through. And B'asia's a sweetheart, even if she doesn't always realize it. She's just learning different ways of handling things. And you're a sweetheart for helping her.

Thanks, ron. As I said in the beginning, I'm not convinced B'asia's behavior can actually be called true aggression. In other words, I don't think her behavior comes from wanting to hurt or attack the other dog, but rather something like anxiety, anxious to make the icky (scary) thing go away. She's a very sensitive soul. And couple that with the fact that even the best treat becomes dirt to her in this situation, I have high hopes that this approach is going to be successful.

Hey! I just thought of videotaping one of the sessions to post here. Maybe after a few sessions I can have my husband doing the actual exercise and I'll tape it. We'll see.

ron2

Mine was to reward the calm and non-aggressive behavior in the presence of previously exciting stimuli, as opposed to making the icky thing go away, which I think will work well, too.

IMO, and I also want to say that I have studied this method but have not practiced it, both methods are effective but in CAT the dog learns that the new learned behavior will make the ichey thing go away at a lower and lower reactive cost.  The difference as I see it is that the new learned behavior becomes self reinforced where I think the desensitized or distraction and food/object/praise reward approach is management.  There is a point in the distance or proximity where a switch takes place and that switch is very apparent.  Jesus and Kellie have no explanation as why this occurs but in each of their demos, the dog changes and want playful engagement with the other dog. 

I like this method because it is somewhat similar to my original approach in addressing DDA.  This method absolutely requires the simulus condition to be controlled.  The dog is leashed or tied with the owner at its side.  A baseline is identified as to how far the dog can reach.  In the treatment, the role of the owner is just to be present.  The owner does nothing, no talking, no praising, no treating, no distracting, NOTHING.  Except keep the dog engaged because, that is make sure the dog doesn't go asleep from the boredom of watch the itchey thing come and go.

The ideal demo dog is laid back and does not react to the presence or behavior of another dog.  Kellie says this is the biggest problem in doing the treatment, finding such a dog.  If the demo dog reacts then all previous work done up to that point is lost. 

In the video, the demo dog and the handler approach the tethered dog.  When dog reacts aggressively the floor/ground is marked as the baseline.  The dog owner is doing nothing but observing.  The demo dog and handler hold their position on the baseline and wait for a behavior change that can be reinforced.  This is where an experience trainer familiar with gestures comes in.  The new behavior could be a turn of the head, a yawn, a tail up, something.  Once a new behavior that is acceptable is observed then the demo dog and handler turn around and the ichey thing goes away.  For those familiar with the C/T, it is exactly the same thing.  This is trial 1 and there can be as many as 40 trials in an hour span. 

Next, according to the video, the demo and handler start approaching the dog.  This time they stop before the baseline and wait for 15 seconds and if there is no aggression, they turn around and make the ichey thing go away.  They do this many times with each time getting take one additional step to the baseline.  When they reach the baseline and there is no aggression, they reinforce by making the ichey thing come and go at the baseline.  The next phase is to move the baseline closer to the dog and then repeat the trials.

They say that if the dog is aggessive at the baseline after repeated trials, then the baseline was too close to start off with. 

Thanks for the clear explanation. I could see it happening.

 DPU, did you say you have videos of this? Where are you seeing the video?

I've been doing a lot of research on this technique, and have been developing a very good view of it. I've been following the procedure in a number of dogs now, and am on Kellie's list and I learn a lot from her. I really would love to do this with Gaci, however there is nobody in the area that I trust enough to work with, so that I could be confident it would be done properly.

Let us know how it goes though 4IC, I'll be interested to hear the result. It can make for a long day for you and the dog, as it tends to take a number of hours at a time, of straight work. Although different people have been modifying it as they needed, but doing it "by the book" usually involves a loooong day *G*

Kim_MacMillan

however there is nobody in the area that I trust enough to work with, so that I could be confident it would be done properly.

Although different people have been modifying it as they needed

4IC, I have the dvd's referenced in Vinia's link.  The dvd's are copyrighted and included are about 5 or 6 actual filming of the treatment.  The dvd's are 10 hours long and the beginning part is the scientific explanation.  If you can get only dvd #2, that is one that graphically explains what is happening.

I think it is very important that the dog owner understands the treatment as it was meant to be applied.  As KMac mentioned, different people have been modifying it and one reversed the treatment protocal to successfully treat Separation Anxiety. 

From my own experience, I did get the video for Paganini who is dog aggressive, going into a panic state.  The rescue org found a behaviorist to work with Pags and I referenced to her the Pushing Exercise and CAT.  I told her I would like to work with her using CAT and she told me she was familiar with both techniques (internet referencing only) and that they were just the same old stuff but different variations and that she uses a combination.  I offered her the videos that demonastrated success within hours.  She refused and said it would work best if Pags just lived in her house.  That was 4 weeks ago and she said she still needs a couple more weeks.  I have a feeling she is strictly using NILIF because she reported back to the organization that before Pags came to her she was just plain old spoiled by the fosterer (me).  I am chalking this up to another one of my bad experiences with a trainer/behaviorist.  When I dropped Pags off to this behaviorist, I told her Pags still had HW microphilia and that it is important that she get her HW prevention to kill the buggers.  She would not accept Pags because she felt the HW were contagious to the other dogs in her home.  Since she was a stubborn person and would not listen to me I called "experts" and had her talk to them.  She then accepted Pags. 

This experience teaches to ask experience qualifications of professionals before training occurs.  I still think you should ask your instructor on the education and experience using CAT.   If a dog trainer says they are going to use CAT, then they should explain to you in advance any deviations from the protocal. 

FourIsCompany

In other words, I don't think her behavior comes from wanting to hurt or attack the other dog, but rather something like anxiety, anxious to make the icky (scary) thing go away. She's a very sensitive soul.

I really don't know your dog and I can't see the actual behavior, but consider that B'asia may just be misreading the dog signals that are coming back.  If that is the case then to me, its a 'boundry" issue and since you can control B'asia reaction under these circumstances, she will learn the boundaries.  Many of times, my fosters just play too rough and I have to reel them in.

I believe CAT won't work if its not distance or proximity issue.  Also, Dr. Jesus says that the best candidate for the Treatment is a dog who has limited experience to stimulus conditions.  He says the worst candidates are those belonging to trainers because of all the behaviors the dog has in its repertoire. 

Kim_MacMillan

I've been doing a lot of research on this technique, and have been developing a very good view of it.

I know this study has been going on since 2004 and Dr. Jesus has been a lone voice.  I have tried to find other material but have had very limited success.  Would you mind sharing your sources of what you have found?

I don't know if you know this Carla but Tawzer had a video.

http://www.tawzerdogvideos.com/JesusRosalesRuiz-KellieSnider.htm 

http://animalbehavior.wordpress.com/2007/08/22/constructional-aggression-treatment-dvd-has-been-released/

FourIsCompany

If it's something that can be posted in this thread, I would very much like that. I think it would be best for future reference for others right in the thread. Thank you!

You'll have to join the groups to be able to read the posts, so these may or may not be of help:

There are descriptions of some CAT sessions here (by Pat Miller and another dog trainer in New York). A search should be able to find them. I've e-mailed the trainer to ask if I may cross-post, so fingers crossed for that .

And this group is dedicated to CAT: http://pets.groups.yahoo.com/group/the5thquadrant/  You have to have attended a seminar or watched the dvds, though, to be a member.