Play Drive = Prey Drive

corvus

And I guess I've answered the original question in that post. I do think that play in any animal translates to learning life skills, but I don't think that is the sole purpose of play, and life skills may include social bonding.

Why can't play just be play and something that makes the dog feel good.  Why read more intoit, create meanings, or extend it to something more than it is.  What would be the alternative play that would have nothing to do prey drive or socializing? 

I don't think they are the same I feel that they are independent drives.  Bugsy has extremely high prey and play drives.Just some observations:

His prey drive is interesting to me because he catches things but does not kill them.  He hunts all the time.  The moles seem to have all been eradicated or are out of season so he has moved to birds.  He's caught 4 in the last week or so.

He destroys all toys, that is his goal, always. 

He has a need to finish the task whether it is a kong, rawhide or toy destruction

He adjusts his play to the other dogs style and needs.  He played yesterday with two mini-doxie pups and was super gentle, ran at their pace, tried again and again to find a 'game' they BOTH would play with him.  He wrestles ROUGH with his GR girlfriend, tugs with a big male GR, chases with another friend, etc.

He plays fetch to interact with you.  He does the shake once he gets the toy and then is more interested in keep away than in you throwing it again. 

He loves to wrestle with humans to, but never attempts to hurt you, doesn't growl, does mouth but wide open mouth

I can see overlap but feel strongly they are independent drives
 

Kim_MacMillan

I just think that play in dogs goes a lot further than simple preparatory actions, because dogs play for their entire lives.

Just to be clear, I'm not saying that the play during the entire life is preparatory. What I'm saying is that (as I see it) when an adult dog chases a frisbee, it's because he sees the frisbee move and his prey instinct kicks in so he chases it and catches it. (The reason he brings it back and wants to "play" with me is because I will throw it again and he can chase it again.) Engaging the prey drive is exciting for the dog. It's "fun". 

I agree that some play is more for social bonding, but still, the form the play takes traces back to the very basic instincts of the animal (prey and sex). They role-play. The specific reason that they play the way they do is that it mimics prey situations.

Same with a cat. The particular play that cats engage in simulates their actions as predators. The REASON they get SO interested in the little feather wiggling is because it looks like a bird. Any little wiggling item imitates a small animal that they might eat. That's why they're so interested and must pounce.

I'm not saying this to convince anyone or to argue, because I think that's pointless, but I did want to be clear on what I was actually saying.

They are two different things with my dog.  River has a strong PREY drive being his breed encompasses herding.  However, he has little to no play drive – Swissies are known NOT to be fond of playing .  Ball/catch for example would normal tie in to prey drive beautifully but it is rare to find a Swissy who likes to play catch.  Tug is fun for him and most Swissies given his breeds desire to cart/work. 

Kim_MacMillan

Do you think they are always synonymous with each other?

Not at all.

Many of the Pharaoh Hounds and Azawakhs that I know, especially the bitches, have super high prey drive and very little "play" drive.

When I fostered Gaia, her prey drive was through the roof-but it took her about 3 months before she actually played at all.  She was usually a deadly serious girl. 

I think play is all about being social. Lots of dogs with super-high-prey drive have zero interest in chasing a frisbee or ball, and lots of dogs with very low prey drive love to wrestle with other dogs.

DPU

What would be the alternative play that would have nothing to do prey drive or socializing? 

I don't think there really is an alternative, especially in dogs.  

Some dogs have been bred for hundreds of years to remain "puppy like" in their mannerisms;  to remain cute and playful.  This neoteny, IMO, is responsible for the "play" mechanism to continue into adulthood in dogs. 

DPU

Why can't play just be play and something that makes the dog feel good.  Why read more intoit, create meanings, or extend it to something more than it is. 

Play, in our eyes, is meant for fun.  Play to puppies serves to teach behaviors, and provide social bonding within the group.  Since dogs have shown an inherent and intrinsic need for a "pack" or "group" these behaviors tend to strengthen and provide bonds within that group.

But are the play and prey drives the same?  I think not. 

A study was done on cats which supposedly showed that there was no increase in predatory skills in cats who played and in those who didn't. I think the study was incomplete because play does more than hone sensorimotor skills, it actually improves the brain's ability to learn and adapt to new situations, which are very important aspects of the "mental" part of hunting. It also stimulates brain growth factors in young mammals, and fosters social and emotional flexibility. Also, Raymond Coppinger says play and learning are practically synonymous.

 http://www.tiny.cc/playbenefits

LCK 

Xerxes

Many of the Pharaoh Hounds and Azawakhs that I know, especially the bitches, have super high prey drive and very little "play" drive.

I'm really wanting to understand where you're coming from with this statement. Can someone explain? In other words, what are the indicators that a dog has a high prey drive? How are you measuring that? By the same token, what specifically is telling you that the play drive (in quotes?) is low?

How did you know Gaia's prey drive was so high? Was she killing animals right and left? And when she finally played, what kind of play was it?

Thanks for helping me to see the other side of this. I'm having a hard time.  

FourIsCompany

Can someone explain? In other words, what are the indicators that a dog has a high prey drive?

Anything that moves, or runs away will be chased, or an attempt to chase will be made;  Leaves, birds, squirrels, mice, deer, rabbits, cats and other animals not mentioned are targets (not to mention small hyperactive dogs.)  In addition the dog is always on the lookout for those items and once located the dog will train all focus on those items, often to the point of no awareness of their surroundings.  (They "tune out" all distractions.)

FourIsCompany

How are you measuring that?

I'm comparing that to other dogs that I've had that had a passing interest in these items/animals but were easily distracted from them.

FourIsCompany

what specifically is telling you that the play drive (in quotes?) is low?

The dogs don't play. 

FourIsCompany

How did you know Gaia's prey drive was so high? Was she killing animals right and left?

 Gaia was and is, very active in the "hunting" phase of prey drive.  Always scanning, always keeping her ears moving to listen for signs of prey.  And at the first sign of prey she becomes very intent and focused upon that item.

 She would have been killing animals if she had not been leashed outside.   

FourIsCompany

And when she finally played, what kind of play was it?

Here's a video of one of the first times I saw her play, opens in a new window.

Her play consisted of squeaky toys while inside.  Outside she would run but only to chase Xerxes-and then she would catch him and attempt to hamstring him.  Fortunately for Xerxes, he learned the hamstring trick long ago, and he was much faster than Gaia, though not as quick in the turns. 

corvus

I'm going to go ahead and disagree with this (slightly).

What are you disagreeing with? LOL, I'm not sure, as everything you've said I basically said the same thing *G*.

My quote:

For example, domestic animals, humans, and many social mammals, maintain play well into adulthood and even throughout their entire lives until death. Dogs, dolphins, cats, humans, primates, and some birds, are the best known.

So I think parrots and rabbits both fall into this category. ;-)

We've both also said that play extends further than just life skills, and that the type of play is dictated by the species, and also that it's not the sole purpose of play, and that it has its basis in social species.

What exactly are you disagreeing with? LOL.

(Note: Kim MacMillan's brain is a similar consistency to mush right now, with the number of things going on in her head, so if she's missing something very obvious, she is to be forgiven).

 I also wanted to add this.  Most of us have seen dogs that will actually relax while outside.  Gaia was always on edge, scanning and waiting for sign of prey.  Getting her to "down" outside was a challenge.  Relaxing only took place inside, away from prey smells, the antics of suicidal squirrels, and rabbits that like to freeze 10 feet from the trail.

Xerxes

 I also wanted to add this.  Most of us have seen dogs that will actually relax while outside.  Gaia was always on edge, scanning and waiting for sign of prey.  Getting her to "down" outside was a challenge.  Relaxing only took place inside, away from prey smells, the antics of suicidal squirrels, and rabbits that like to freeze 10 feet from the trail.

If you're saying that obeying the down involves relaxing, that's not what I see at all. To me teaching the down is much easier, for both the trainer and the dog, while the dog's prey drive is revved up pretty high first (and focused on a toy). In my view the down used in obedience is directly related to the eye stalk behavior seen in predators.

LCK 

yeah, the intense excited  "down" ready to explode into action. Definitely not "relaxed". But I'm not convinced toy-drive and prey-drive are entirely the same thing, although definitely related. I've met too many intense "chase and kill" dogs, hounds and terriers, who thought balls and frisbees were beneath their  notice; and dogs who live to play tug or frisbee who didn't appear to have over-the-top prey drive.

Lee Charles Kelley

If you're saying that obeying the down involves relaxing,

I didn't say that at all.