Play Drive = Prey Drive

    • Gold Top Dog

    Play Drive = Prey Drive

    What do you think on this?

    It has been mentioned recently on another post, and I was curious what others thought. Do you think they are always synonymous with each other? That all play in dogs is about predator/prey drives? Do you think there is a component to play that doesn't involve the use of prey drive? Perhaps some types of play involve prey drives and others do not?

    Discuss!

    • Gold Top Dog

    No I do not believe these are equal or even equivalent drives.  Speaking from a genetic standpoint, prey drive was more associated with survival and play with social networks.  Prey is more primal.  I think play drive is easier to channel and manipulate (spoken as an owner of high prey drive dogs).  One with high play drive, the other with low.

    • Gold Top Dog

    Kim_MacMillan
    It has been mentioned recently on another post

     

    I must be more careful what I say! LOL I don't know if they are 100% equal, but they do overlap and are very similar and that's what I meant.  Smile  

    • Gold Top Dog

    FourIsCompany
    I must be more careful what I say!

    No no, it's good for interesting discussion! I'm still formulating my thoughts on it so decided to post it up while I gather them together.

    • Gold Top Dog

    mrv
    Speaking from a genetic standpoint, prey drive was more associated with survival and play with social networks.

    I would never even think to consider Play = Prey. I'd be interested in seeing why someone would think THAT way because I find it obvious to think otherwise.

    So for right now I would have to go with, No Play & Prey are two different things.

    • Gold Top Dog

    Well I'll have to admit I'm not sure. Sassy seems to have high prey drive, it was even noted by the behaviorist. However, now that I think about it, maybe it's play drive. Example - she would crouch very low in the grass on the other side of the yard and have a stare down with Buffy, then as soon as Buffy moved, she'd charge her. I think that's play drive, right? It didn't always go well :( which is why we met with a behaviorist. Another example - we were out front, Sassy was off leash and just hanging out while we washed the car. I glanced at her and saw that alert look and realized she'd spotted a cat and before I could say a word, she ran full speed after it. The cat made it over a fence (thank goodness), but I'm not sure what Sassy would've done if she'd caught it. Is that more prey drive?

    • Gold Top Dog

    I think there is some overlap - especially with certain games that some dogs like to play, but I don't think you can use them interchangeably... 

    A dog who is really into fetch is exhibiting high prey and high play drive - the prey part is the chasing (and sometimes the "killing" of the ball/frisbee (where the dog will pounce it, and maybe shake is violently around before returning); the part where they give you the ball and then maybe dance around you in excitement, don't take their eyes off you and generally make the experience very interactive seems a lot more like play to me.

    OTOH, a game like wrestling doesn't seem to have anything to do with prey drive to me...  A dog who wrestles with humans/dogs appropriately is not chasing or killing (prey type stuff) it is all play, very gently mouth, lots of paws rolling around.  When we wrestle (more DH than me, so I get to observe) there is a ton of back and forth, neither is "chasing" the other - Wesley is as likely to "give space" as to take it - not predatory at all.  In my mind prey drive is going after something that if it were alive the predator would want to kill - maybe I am mis-defining...

    • Gold Top Dog

    Much of young animals' play with their littermates is in preparation for finding and killing food when they grow up. Think about a cat playing... What's their favorite toy?

    From The Genesis of Animal Play By Gordon M. Burghardt

    All animals that pretend violence in their play stop short of exercising it. The dog takes the greatest precaution not to injure by his bite.[...] Some animals carry out in their play the semblance of catching their prey. Young cats, for instance, leap after every small and moving object. [...] They crouch and steal forward ready for the spring, the body quivering and the tail vibrating with emotion...

    Even prey animals play in preparation for avoiding being caught. Think of the way young deer and rabbits play. Lots of hopping and zig-zagging. While dogs play by crouching, chasing, "attacking" shaking and wrestling, all behaviors they would use in bringing down another animal.

    They bring the ball or frisbee back so you'll throw it for them (make it alive) and they can do it all over again.
     

    • Gold Top Dog

    FourIsCompany

    Much of young animals' play with their littermates is in preparation for finding and killing food when they grow up. Think about a cat playing... What's their favorite toy?

    From The Genesis of Animal Play By Gordon M. Burghardt

    All animals that pretend violence in their play stop short of exercising it. The dog takes the greatest precaution not to injure by his bite.[...] Some animals carry out in their play the semblance of catching their prey. Young cats, for instance, leap after every small and moving object. [...] They crouch and steal forward ready for the spring, the body quivering and the tail vibrating with emotion...

    Even prey animals play in preparation for avoiding being caught. Think of the way young deer and rabbits play. Lots of hopping and zig-zagging. While dogs play by crouching, chasing, "attacking" shaking and wrestling, all behaviors they would use in bringing down another animal.

    They bring the ball or frisbee back so you'll throw it for them (make it alive) and they can do it all over again.

    I completely agree with this - but do you think there are times that dogs are playing just to be social, not for any "life necessity" purpose - just to be together and have fun? 

    • Gold Top Dog

    Mrv makes a good point.

    I think play is practice for a variety of skills, both social and survival.

    • Gold Top Dog

    schleide

    FourIsCompany

    Much of young animals' play with their littermates is in preparation for finding and killing food when they grow up. Think about a cat playing... What's their favorite toy?

    From The Genesis of Animal Play By Gordon M. Burghardt

    All animals that pretend violence in their play stop short of exercising it. The dog takes the greatest precaution not to injure by his bite.[...] Some animals carry out in their play the semblance of catching their prey. Young cats, for instance, leap after every small and moving object. [...] They crouch and steal forward ready for the spring, the body quivering and the tail vibrating with emotion...

    Even prey animals play in preparation for avoiding being caught. Think of the way young deer and rabbits play. Lots of hopping and zig-zagging. While dogs play by crouching, chasing, "attacking" shaking and wrestling, all behaviors they would use in bringing down another animal.

    They bring the ball or frisbee back so you'll throw it for them (make it alive) and they can do it all over again.

    I completely agree with this - but do you think there are times that dogs are playing just to be social, not for any "life necessity" purpose - just to be together and have fun? 

    I agree with FourIsCompany's statement on how play is a building block toward survival skills.  However, at the same time I believe play is always done to have fun.  The animals don't think to themselves let me do this to survive, they do it because it feels good.  The effects are just part of the advantages that come out of it.  Sort of nature's way of tricking animals, humans including, into preparing for adulthood.  Wild animals that had no propensity to play and hone their skills most likely had a lower chance of survival (in certain species, namely those with a childhood).

     In predatory animals much of their play can be seen as inate practice for hunting purposes.  I don't believe however a high play drive= a high prey drive.  Domesticated dogs don't need there hunting skills for survival like they once did and it isn't necessarily a disadvantage if they don't make the jump from play to developing a true prey drive.  Kirby has a very high play drive but a low what I would consider true prey drive.  He does love chasing other animals like ducks and cats if they run, but he sees it as part of play, hence if he ever catches up he breaks into play bows in attempts at continuing the game.
     

    • Gold Top Dog

    schleide
    but do you think there are times that dogs are playing just to be social, not for any "life necessity" purpose - just to be together and have fun? 

     

    Oh, yes. But I think the reason they have the drive or desire to even play together socially is because of a deeper instinct that is their prey drive. There's no way we can know how they view it. Whether they are just operating out of drive or thinking, "Hey! This is fun"! I know it looks to us as though they're having fun, but is it "fun" or exercising drive? 

    I am on shaky ground here disagreeing with mrv and Angelique, Surprise but this is what I believe. I am fully prepared to be wrong, but for now, I'm not convinced that they are 2 different things.  

    • Gold Top Dog

    FourIsCompany

    I am fully prepared to be wrong, but for now, I'm not convinced that they are 2 different things.  

    Hope this helps.  I am limited to what I observe and see.  Do you see my avatar.  That is a picture of a Field Pointer named Lady who I fostered and rehabbed.  Lady played just like any other dog and the only way she can be active and physically interact with other dogs is by touch with her mouth and front paws.  Never during play have I ever seen her point. 

    • Gold Top Dog

    Okay, as a start:

    I think that play, indeed, has a crucial role in social species in learning required life skills. It involves learning how to hunt, learning how to cooperate with others, learning how to communicate and treat other animals of your social group, it even involves some early practice in learning about mating and bonding. It also provides an outlet for healthy growth to strengthen muscles and maintain flexibility and fluidity. There's no question (in my mind) that play in young animals is preparatory for adulthood in some manner.

    However, I begin to see distinctions. For example, domestic animals, humans, and many social mammals, maintain play well into adulthood and even throughout their entire lives until death. Dogs, dolphins, cats, humans, primates, and some birds, are the best known. I think within this scope it goes beyond preparatory skills and more into another realm, because at some point the animal doesn't need to "prepare" anymore. And I think play itself sort of "matures" as the animal matures, such that it takes on a different motivation. Some of that motivation may be to act out some of their natural behaviour patterns. I mean, you can see some of the basic predatory patterns in the way dogs play, with the areas in which they grab (rear legs, necks, muzzles), the way they play tug (it's almost all about the social interaction, not about the competition). You can see how the dogs switch "roles" from being the jumper and the jumpee. The way a dog chases down and kills its toys, or retrieves its toys in a modified predator pattern. I think that is just how dogs do tend to play, as it's part an parcel of who they are. It would be strange if dogs starting doing bunny hops or trying to blend in with trees as a measure of play *G* Obviously the style of play will be indicitive of the species engaging in the play.

    So it can still take on the role of acting out innate needs, but there are also aspects of it that don't totally match up with that as well. Certain behaviours that occur that don't tend to match up with predator prey interactions, such as one dog enticing another dog to play tug in the first place. A dog playing keep away, while daring the other dogs to "try" to take what it has. Dogs dropping things at the feet of another dog to engage in play. Dogs playing chase just for the fun of it (after all, as predators, dogs shouldn't really enjoy "being chased" naturally), and taking turns chasing each other. So many aspects of play just don't take on the role of what you would consider innate action patterns or preparation for survival skills, as a lot of things dogs do in play really don't come in handy during times of actual need *G*  They seem to be reserved only for play, and not for any other aspects in their lives.

    I just think that play in dogs goes a lot further than simple preparatory actions, because dogs play for their entire lives. Some would relate that to the neotenization of the dog, in that they are more puppylike compared to their wild counterparts. Even so, there is I think something to be said for animals that continue to play well into the late years of their lives, that goes beyond simple predator/prey dynamics, I think it's more complex than that. I certainly don't have the answers...haha....play is something that still stumps researchers in many fields, but I have fun thinking it over and trying to come up with some ideas. I find it especially intriguing because dogs have such a need for play throughout their lives, as it actually matches up more closely with the primates and humans (or dolphins - all considered higher-order species) than it does with their own wild counterparts, who basically only play the way that they do during puppyhood.

    • Gold Top Dog

    Kim_MacMillan

    I just think that play in dogs goes a lot further than simple preparatory actions, because dogs play for their entire lives. Some would relate that to the neotenization of the dog, in that they are more puppylike compared to their wild counterparts. Even so, there is I think something to be said for animals that continue to play well into the late years of their lives, that goes beyond simple predator/prey dynamics, I think it's more complex than that. I certainly don't have the answers...haha....play is something that still stumps researchers in many fields, but I have fun thinking it over and trying to come up with some ideas. I find it especially intriguing because dogs have such a need for play throughout their lives, as it actually matches up more closely with the primates and humans (or dolphins - all considered higher-order species) than it does with their own wild counterparts, who basically only play the way that they do during puppyhood.

     

    I'm going to go ahead and disagree with this (slightly). Most domestic rabbits, if given the opportunity, will play throughout their lives. However, my wild hare, who I reckon is probably smarter than a domestic rabbit, although in different ways, grew out of play to a large extent. When he was a wee leveret, he never stopped playing. He'd skip around the place, jumping and twisting, and boxing and trying to entice other critters to chase him. He did that kind of thing until he was about 12 months old, then the playing gradually dissipated. He still plays occasionally, but I don't think that's particularly normal for a hare. He's not a very normal hare. My domestic buns, though, love to toss things around, and I know people with pairs that chase each other, and chasing cats is well-known, usually followed by sitting on them if the hapless cat fails to escape. I'm not sure about wild rabbits, but I'm guessing they probably don't play much.

    I am forming this vague theory that play is largely related to social bonding, although the nature of the play is dictated by what an animal will need to learn in life. Kit's play took on the form of honing his agility and speed and ability to escape a pursuer. When he ran around rooms as a baby, everything he passed would rattle and things would fall over. Even dogs and cats play quite differently, catered to the different ways they hunt. I guess even the rabbits with their obsession with carrying and tossing things are preparing themselves for making nests and homes. Frigatebirds play at chasing, stealing, and catching things on the wing, which is how they make their living as adults, as well.

    This we all know. However, all those animals that play into adulthood are very social. Very, very social. Even rabbits are. I would expect wild rabbits not to play, but largely because they get very territorial. I could be wrong and maybe they play all through their lives. In which case I think my theory would be strengthened. Over here, I've seen wild parrots playing, and while I think it's usually juveniles, adults engage in some playful activities as well (like pulling twigs off trees and dropping them on me). In fact, I've seen adult deer playing as well (in a domestic situation). I'm thinking that play into adulthood is partly related to strong social bonding and partly to the simple fact that domestic/captive animals don't have much else to do. They don't have any food to find. Many of the don't have mates to find, or babies to raise. They don't have a lot of territory to roam. They like company, so I think they find ways to interact with company that they find enjoyable.

    And I guess I've answered the original question in that post. I do think that play in any animal translates to learning life skills, but I don't think that is the sole purpose of play, and life skills may include social bonding.