Play Drive = Prey Drive

Kim_MacMillan

corvus

I'm going to go ahead and disagree with this (slightly).

What are you disagreeing with? LOL, I'm not sure, as everything you've said I basically said the same thing *G*.

That'd be right. Even when I think I'm disagreeing with you I'm not!

You said you thought there was something more, but didn't say what exactly. Seeing as you mentioned all the classic smart animals, I assumed you were talking about brains. Rabbits aren't very brainy, really, compared to a predatory animal, or any of the other animals you used as an example. I was seeing a pattern where no pattern was intended, and was disagreeing with the pattern. Sorry!

Incidentally, I'm feeling a little bit confused myself. When we say prey drive and play drive are the same thing, how "same" do we mean? Pyry doesn't play much, but loves to hunt small animals, and Jill adores playing fetch, but only has a passing interest in hunting. She nearly caught a rat on our holidays over Christmas, but after a couple of minutes of trying to find it, I was able to call her away to do something else. If it had been Pyry that found the rat, he would have been there literally all day trying to find it and kill it. So obviously they don't have the same drive, but I do kinda think they have the same sort of drive. As I understood prey drive, our domestic dogs have various parts of the prey drive augmented or bred out of them. So Jill luuuuurves to chase, because she's got Kelpie blood, but she's not particularly driven to kill, or even stalk, really. Nonetheless, I think that's more because she's had that bit of the prey drive lost from her genetic makeup. In contrast, Pyry loves nothing more than hunting and then biting small animals, but isn't much into chasing. I guess his chasing bit of the prey drive is not augmented the way Jill's is (despite being a purebred herder, albeit nothing like a Kelpie), but the part of his prey drive that makes him want to forage and bite is still wholly intact (and possibly even augmented for all I know - I've got nothing to compare it with). So in a way, I could say play and prey drives are not the same, but in another way I could say that play drive is a subset of prey drive.
 

Kim_MacMillan

What do you think on this?

It has been mentioned recently on another post, and I was curious what others thought. Do you think they are always synonymous with each other? That all play in dogs is about predator/prey drives? Do you think there is a component to play that doesn't involve the use of prey drive? Perhaps some types of play involve prey drives and others do not?

Discuss!

Hum...I haven't read through the posts, but I will say that I noticed with Apollo when he's playing with other dogs all is fine, but if the other dogs start to fly around really fast- like spazzing out, chasing each other- he ends up trying to nip at them (never made contact though), like if he was chasing a rabbit. Not sure if his play turns on his prey, or if he's just not playing politely. He's never bitten a dog, or fought, or anything like that.

Pomeranian <3

I would never even think to consider Play = Prey. I'd be interested in seeing why someone would think THAT way because I find it obvious to think otherwise.

So for right now I would have to go with, No Play & Prey are two different things.

 What is obvious to you that prey drive and play are so separate?

 IMO play with most all animals is based on learning life skills, relieving stress and providing an outlet for pent up energey. I find this to be pretty obvious from watching so much dog to dog interactions. I think the stress relief/energy outlet aspects are why it continues into adulthood - it just feels good to them to play. Also as someone pointed out, domestication tends to cause animals to retain juvenile like qualities.

 My Belgians play a game I refer to as "Deer" and interestingly it is always the same dogs that are the "deer" - the more submissive, less confident, "lower ranking" dogs. The dogs will chase the "deer" dog as though pursuing prey until the "deer" dog finds shelter or gives up. When those things occur the rest of the dogs will try everything they can to make the "deer" run again. It is pretty obvious this is a prey - play cross over game and it generally results in my breaking it up because the "deer" dog is getting stressed out by having to be the prey object. Also our corgi can't be let out in the yard with a group of more than two other big dogs. Their play with him is VERY prey oriented, not fun for him and IMO could lead to things easily getting more serious. They will sometimes chase him, circle around him and take turns darting at him. They do not injure him or even make contact with him except light, playful nips. It is fun for them but not for the corgi, who gets to feeling very much like a rabbit (he's too little to be a deer ;)). One on one or one on two he can play normal chase and mouth wrestle games with dogs and gets along great with them. In the house there are no issues at all either. But get a group of them in the yard with him and things take a different turn.

If one says prey drive is a component of play, therefore all play must be prey drive...I don't agree.

It's like saying if a dog is a mammal, then all mammals are dogs....which would be untrue. Even though dogs are mammals, they are also canines and predators.

Sure, prey drive is part of play. However, play is also used to sort out social structure, IMO.

Soooo, what's with the humping play?

Horses play, yet they are not predators. Even though they are mammals, like the dog.

Ever see a horse chase a ball around the field? Is he using play to hunt the ball, practice driving away predators, or herding his mares?

Or maybe, he's just full of pent up energy and having fun.

Angelique

Ever see a horse chase a ball around the field? Is he using play to hunt the ball, practice driving away predators, or herding his mares?

Or maybe, he's just full of pent up energy and having fun.

He might be alternately fighting and fleeing from the ball too.    And that's a completely different drive!

corvus

You said you thought there was something more, but didn't say what exactly. Seeing as you mentioned all the classic smart animals, I assumed you were talking about brains. Rabbits aren't very brainy, really, compared to a predatory animal, or any of the other animals you used as an example. I was seeing a pattern where no pattern was intended, and was disagreeing with the pattern. Sorry!

LMBO! Sometimes I wonder if the "simpler" animals aren't somehow better off than us. They seem to know how their world works, and what they don't know they don't much care about anyhow, as it doesn't matter *G*. And I also sometimes have to ask if the reason we don't have our larger frontal lobes is simply because we have to analyze things so much! We need more space for overflow..lol.

corvus

When we say prey drive and play drive are the same thing, how "same" do we mean?

I'm not sure we're saying they are the same thing (well, some are, some are not). But that's why we're discussing it, to try to really press ourselves to question what a lot of us use so, almost automatically, and to see what differences and similarities they hold.

BlackLabbie

Hum...I haven't read through the posts, but I will say that I noticed with Apollo when he's playing with other dogs all is fine, but if the other dogs start to fly around really fast- like spazzing out, chasing each other- he ends up trying to nip at them (never made contact though), like if he was chasing a rabbit. Not sure if his play turns on his prey, or if he's just not playing politely. He's never bitten a dog, or fought, or anything like that.

Interesting you mention that, around the basis of the concept of predatory drift - where play can quite quickly and instantly turn into hunting/killing, involving the same dogs, and sometimes even consuming, depending on the breed and what it has been bred for. Often you see it more with larger dogs and smaller dogs, but you can see it with any size dogs.

I haven't read everything here, but...

Prey and play are two different drives.

I think play drive is mainly a social behavior. Ares, who has the least interest in being in a pack has virtually no play drive. He played a little bit as a puppy, but in his adolescence he lost interest in play. He does however have a very species-specific prey drive. He won't chase *anything that moves*. He'll chase bunnies, bugs, cats, frogs. He's got a lot of good herding instinct, which is said to be a complex prey behavior.

That's kinda my point. I would say it's obvious that there is a difference between prey drive and play drive, but if a lot of play behaviours stem from different parts of the prey drive, then are they really 2 different things, or are they just 2 aspects of the one thing? I agree, btw, that more social dogs often play more. Jill is wildly play-driven, and I think that is partly because she has one of those new herders in her (as opposed to old herder like Pyry, who is more an all-round house dog/ratter/might-help-with-the-livestock-once-in-a-while), but I don't know if she loves play because those kinds of herders were bred for it or if it's more a side-effect of being bred to also be quite social (which I suspect a lot of herders were).

This reminds me of the discussion about whether things like growling are aggression in of themselves, or whether they are just signals. 

You raise an interesting point about cats. My old cat, Misty, was never much of a mouse-hunter. Crickets and bugs, okay. But mice were probably too fast for her. Jade, the cat in my sig, however, does hunt mice, though her skills need improving. She doesn't have another cat to play with, just a dog. Shadow's a better mouse-hunter but he's had more practice and a different style. So, not knowing just how much play affects prey drive, it could be important as fars fine motor skills but I think the instinct will be there, regardless.