Natural dog training - pushing

I'm mystified by how this pushing thing is supposed to activate "prey drive" or improve the recall. My dogs like to play this game, where I lightly shove them and they do bounce back to you- and they can get really fired up with playful joy, but they are playing a sort of wrestling game with you, and it sure doesn't work if the dog is fifty feet away locked on a deer- you can't push the dog if you're not near the dog.  

DPU

I need to understand how "prey drive" fits in

Prey drive is not mentioned on that page.   

DPU

since the excercise affects the magnitude or its intensity.

I don't think it affects the magnitude or intensity of the prey drive. It may refocus it toward you, but it doesn't wake it up or anything. The prey drive is there and may be manifesting as stress (or aggression) but it doesn't create or intensify the prey drive where there is none.

DPU

So in other words I don't always think of "prey drive" as always being associated with food or the only means to satisfy hunger.

I don't either... But that isn't being questioned. Or implied or anything.   (Is it?) Are you possibly making a connection where there isn't one? I'm sure LCK can answer your questions better than I since I am brand new at this particular exercise. LCK? Hello?

DPU

AgileGSD

 Actually I don't feed my dogs on a schedule, as in feed them at the exact time (s) every day. It is great - no demanding, annoying behavior from the dogs if I happen to be late with a meal for some reason (which I find displeasing :) ).

 I am not saying dogs should go without food for days but a 24 hour fast isn't going to hurt them and according to at least some dog nutrition gurus, it may even be good for them.

So this is what all dog owners should do?   Seems to me not a very good way, medically speaking.  I see strong emotions being attached with dog's basic surivival need, not to mention the dog may not be eatng in peace.

  Isn't this type of intentional feeding just that silly old dominance urge of humans over dogs?

 I didn't say anything about dominance or what other owners should or should not do. I was just stating that 24 hour fasts are an accepted part of some dog plans, done without problems by many owners and according to some may actually be healthy. I also talked about my experience with a feeding schedule vs. no feeding schedule. I feel that it isn't necessary to feed at a set time every day and that if you are one who finds the demanding behavior of a dog who "knows it's dinnertime" annoying, feeding at varied times discourages it.

I've found that feeding on a non-fixed schedule dramatically reduces anxiety about food.

corvus

I think the idea behind the Natural Dog Training thing is that you're not so much encouraging more prey drive, just giving it an ideal outlet. But I do wonder if encouraging prey drive results in an increase in the expression of prey drive across the board.

Yes, and I do use prey drives in teaching a lot of things to my girls. But I personally just don't see much how it has to do with prey drive, by simply using a natural opposition reflex to "push back against which pushes against you". People do it too, does that mean we are using our prey drive? *G* I just think it's a learned behaviour much like anything else, I see tug work much more prey-drive related as it involves actual predatory motor patterns. I guess I just don't get where the prey drive really enters the equation.

Natural Dog Training is a big umbrella. A lot of aspects of NDT have to do with understanding and working with the prey drive (which in simpler terms just means attraction). This pushing technique is ONE aspect of NDT and has more to do with building confidence and attraction to you than anything. It's kind of like playing hard to get! LOL

I suggest people stop trying to "associate" pushing with the "prey drive" (as in an animal killing another animal) and look at it more as developing and building the attraction the dog has for you.

If you want to understand, you can read some of the links. That's where I got my info.   Or perhaps LCK will come along and clear it up for everyone. 

Oh, here:

How pushing teaches your dog what to do with his energy

The goal of pushing is to get your dog to be attracted to you unconditionally - especially in moments of high energy and stress.

Okay, so prey drive is probably not something to worry about, as it's not all about prey drive. I am hoping this technique might recover some of Penny's trust in me that was damaged so long ago with the traditional training.

However, it's just occurred to me that Penny has a degenerate disc in her spine near her shoulderblades. Pressure on her shoulder and neck area causes her pain. She doesn't like to do things like walking down stairs or steep slopes and walking up long hills. I think pushing against my hand might be physically uncomfortable for her, although for food she probably won't notice until afterwards.  

FourIsCompany

Natural Dog Training is a big umbrella. A lot of aspects of NDT have to do with understanding and working with the prey drive (which in simpler terms just means attraction). This pushing technique is ONE aspect of NDT and has more to do with building confidence and attraction to you than anything.

Yes, and I was referring only to pushing when discussing prey drives, not NDT as a generalization.

It's not that I'm "associating" pushing with prey drive, but NDT overtly claims that it is using the prey drive as the way in which to build that attraction to you. So since it specifically talks about prey drive being channelled, I think discussing these "associations" (which, might I add, were not created by me! I'm just discussing the theories that have been created!) is quite important and relevant, to actually try to grasp the point of the exercise and discuss whether or not the theory applied fits the effects produced.

I'm not arguing that there might not be good effects from it, or similar things, but I am questioning whether or not prey drive is involved, since it has been directly associated by others.

FourIsCompany

If you want to understand, you can read some of the links. That's where I got my info

Oh I certainly want to understand, which is why I'm addressing a concern of my own, which is more theoretical, but I think still important. I think some aspects of NDT may very well have benefits for dogs, and I've read various articles about the philosophy in the past. But being a critical thinker I really like to jump into the deep end to think about all aspects of a training module, including the theories rather than just the outcomes *G*.

FourIsCompany

DPU

I need to understand how "prey drive" fits in

 

Prey drive is not mentioned on that page.   

DPU

since the excercise affects the magnitude or its intensity.

 

 

FourIsCompany

I don't think it affects the magnitude or intensity of the prey drive. It may refocus it toward you, but it doesn't wake it up or anything. The prey drive is there and may be manifesting as stress (or aggression) but it doesn't create or intensify the prey drive where there is none.

It actually does increase the intensity of the prey drive in a way because it teaches the dog to work past his internal resistance; the less resistance he has the more his drive is expressed through behavior. It's a bit like reducing the drag co-effecient in an airplane or race car.

When wolves hunt large prey they have to overcome a lot of resistance -- internal and external -- in order to be successful. External resistance can come in the form of rough terrain, for example, or a herd of bison who refuse to run, or a deer who turns and "brandishes" his antlers at the pack. Internal resistance is a bit harder to see but since the pack has to expend a lot of energy when they hunt, they have to work past their fear, their levels of tiredness, etc. It also seems to me that nature has created a system where the wolf doesn't really want to hunt large prey if he doesn't have to. That in itself is a form of resistance built into the equation. That's why endorphins are released at each stage of the hunt.

So what motivates the pack to finally get off their collective asses (so to speak) and go look for something with hooves to feast on? They have to be pretty hungry. And since all behavior is based on levels of tension and release, tension builds with the hunger, and is released through the hunt. So in effect, part of the prey drive is this build up of tension. In other words, even though hunger is part of the equation, the prey drive itself operates by building tension in the animal. Hunger only brings that tension into sharp relief, if you will. And I say this because the primary release point for tension seems to always be through the teeth and jaws. This is why most dog owners have baskets full of rawhides, bones, chew toys, etc. Nature has designed canines to release and reduce tension through biting.

As a sort of side note, this business of the prey drive building tension inside wolves is one reason we've been getting false information about the social dynamics of wolf packs. Most of that information came through observations of captive wolves, culled from various sources, who didn't really know one another, and more importantly, weren't given a chance to hunt and kill large prey on a regular basis. So even though they were fed regularly, their prey drive was still active and building tension inside them. And that tension needed an outlet, so the wolves offloaded their predatory emotions and tension into conflicts with one another, the types of conflicts rarely seen in wild wolves. Why don't wild wolves act the same way captive wolves do? The primary reason (among other things) is that they already have a natural release point for tension--collectively hunting large prey.

It's interesting to note that at Wolf Park (where the wolves are given a chance to chase and I suppose "harass" buffalo, but are never allowed to actually use their teeth and jaws to kill them), the wolves don't exhibit the same kind or level of hierarchical behaviors we see in other captive wolves. They do exhibit some of those behaviors, though, because they never get a chance to actually kill the buffalo, just to do everything but, which is probably why the people at Wolf Park still seem convinced that the wolves there form hierarchies. But I think that's only because they're not getting that final payoff through biting that nature has designed them for.

So what does this have to do with the pushing exercise? It teaches the dog to work past his internal resistance, that's all. It reduces his inhibitions. So while Kim is sort of mistaken when she says the exercise is just operant conditioning, in a way she's not. The reason is that the behavioral scientist tends to see things more through the lens of behaviors than through changes in internal states. And what's being "conditioned" or positively reinforced here isn't one specific behavior, but the wellspring of a whole host of related behaviors and feeling states.

DPU

So in other words I don't always think of "prey drive" as always being associated with food or the only means to satisfy hunger.

 

I don't either... But that isn't being questioned. Or implied or anything.   (Is it?) Are you possibly making a connection where there isn't one? I'm sure LCK can answer your questions better than I since I am brand new at this particular exercise. LCK? Hello?

Well, I hope I've answered them. It's about building tension in the dog and teaching him that he can overcome his own internal resistance to reduce that tension. Puppies are pretty uninhibited with their teeth, and often get punished for it. So pups who grow up with this internal conflict are often unable to work past their internal resistance, and offer all kinds of alternative means of reducing tension and stress. What the pushing exercise does, essentially, is decreases that internal resistance, which is why most dogs who do it start to play more than they did before.

LCK 

I am completely confused...  I can see why the pushing game would be fun, would build confidence in a dog and would create a situation where a dog wanted to interact in very close physical proximity to his/her person...  It seems to me to be like any other game you teach a dog, you are using a food reward to teach the dog to like the pushing.  Eventually the dog will probably start to just like the pushing without any food rewards - and then you will have a dog that likes to play a game called pushing with you - is that not it??

What I can't figure out is why I want to be more like prey and how I am anything like a predator?  This is totally new to me - I can't imagine that pack animals consider other members of their packs prey or predators - they are other pack members...  Are these words only being used to describe things a dog is attracted to v. things a dog is repelled from?  Or, is the goal really to get my dog to focus on me like he would prey and have the drive with which he would go after prey be transferred to how he wants to be with me?

Lastly, on the fasting item - a dog who is not used to eating on a set schedule, a prey model fed dog that gorges and fasts, for example, or a dog who regularly eats some big meals, some small and at varying times can be very very healthy.  I think that that is a completely valid way of feeding.  But, to fast a dog that is not used to it, who is used to two meals a day, at the same time each day - it does seem pretty maniuplative to me to fast that dog for this exercise... OTOH, if a dog absolutely did not want to have any sort of contact with me - I would feel differently.  In that sort of case, I would do a lot of things, including fasting the dog for a meal or two to better my chances that the dog would have some interaction...  Since I have not run into a dog like that, and mine will go crazy for an extra tidbit after he has just eaten a full meal - I guess I have no idea...

Lee Charles Kelley

Well, I hope I've answered them. It's about building tension in the dog and teaching him that he can overcome his own internal resistance to reduce that tension.

You haven't really answered it in the context of pushing though. I fully understand, and even mostly agree, that in wolves it's about prey drives and facing the challenges of daily living as a predator. Things like overcoming fears to hunt, traveling tough terrain, nylon and rawhide chews for domestic dogs, are indeed all about prey drives and being an outlet of a predator. But how does pushing on its own actually relate to that? All other "releases" of tension had specifically to do with hunting and then consuming prey (or in dogs chewing on bones, the same motor action patterns involved). How does that extrapolate in any way to a dog pushing with oppositional reflex, which all mammals do instinctively irrespective of drive, being responsible, or as a result of, prey drive? Wolves do not "push" their prey around as a way to fulfill their prey drive needs, not in the context in which you are describing. They kill and consume the prey. I can see how something like tug o' war (which I love to use to work with drives), would be an outlet for a prey drive because it involves tugging, shaking, and "killing" (if the dog gets it at the end) the toy, and one can even argue that it is a social event that occurs alongside their "family" (I think tug for most dogs has a lot more to do with social interaction than with competition, as witnessed in both human-games and other-dog games of tug).

It's not that I'm looking at it just from an OC POV, but that it just doesn't match up IMO with the theory that is presented. When you discuss the patterns of wolves, they make sense. Because they are wolves doing things that all revolve around survival and hunting. But dogs aren't hunting as a means of eating anymore, not to mention dogs are much more opportunistic scavengers than their wolf counterparts were, just taking whatever they could get. And I really don't think that dogs eating a bowl of kibble, or even working for a treat, are doing so from a prey drive perspective, as other than the "consume' part (which is inevitable in eating *G*), there are no other parts to the motor action patterns that involve hunting and prey drive. And part of that is where domestication comes in as well. 

Prey drive is directly correlated to the modal action patterns involved in hunting, such as orient, eye, stalk, chase, grab, kill-bite (some with a shake, some not), and then consume. Then there are those behaviours that are linked to post-prey interactions, such as chewing on a left over bone to clean the teeth, relieve boredom, and strengthen the muscles of the neck and jaw. And what you see today in the various breeds of dogs is how those action patterns have been artifically altered and selected for for different tasks.

So it just isn't adding up to me, to how a dog pushing against your hand with its chest is in any way satisfying the prey drive. It might satisfy pent up arousal in general (I say might, as I'm not totally convinced that it would for all dogs, nor am I convinced that it should for all dogs, but I have an open mind to the option), much like you can send a young boy out to take his excessive impulses out on the woodpile in the backyard, but it doesn't really have anything to do with predatory action patterns I don't think, at least it hasn't been explained in any way that seems to support it thus far. Perhaps I will be enlightened though. *G*

Lee Charles Kelley

It actually does increase the intensity of the prey drive in a way because it teaches the dog to work past his internal resistance; the less resistance he has the more his drive is expressed through behavior. It's a bit like reducing the drag co-effecient in an airplane or race car.

I'm reading more as I go along and I am understanding more. I do think the phrase "prey drive" has a limited meaning for many people and that's why everyone is so "confused". I don't think they're thinking about it in the larger sense of attraction and desire, resistance and tenacity, but just wanting to chase bunnies.

I won't try to answer questions about the technique any more because I am just learning about it. It's frustrating to see so much confusion, though. LOL  

schleide

Lastly, on the fasting item - a dog who is not used to eating on a set schedule, a prey model fed dog that gorges and fasts, for example, or a dog who regularly eats some big meals, some small and at varying times can be very very healthy.  I think that that is a completely valid way of feeding.

About the issues of fasting. I've done a heck of a lot of research on raw feeding, as I plan to switch to a prey-model raw diet someday with my girls. But one thing I did decide I didn't care to do was to do the day of fasting. I think, firstly, that domestic dogs have avolved (artificially changed *G*) in such a way not that their metabolic needs have changed a whole lot (this is what allows them to remain healthy on raw diets!), but that their patterns of eating have changed. Unless you raise a puppy from birth, once able to eat solid food, on a diet that consists of regular fasting, then I don't see the point in incorporating it into the diet of our domestic pets simply because "it's what wolves do". Because most things dogs do are not what wolves do, and dogs have avolved to eat regular meals, around similar times of the day (morning/evening, give or take a few hours, or one meal per day - the point is there's routine), each and every day.

A dog who grows up with expectations of meals at regular intervals could experience additional stress at not understanding why a meal was being withheld. And to do it regularly I don't think would be wise. I'm sure that Gaci or Shimmer would not find it very "fun" to miss out on a day's worth of food just because wolves had to do it in the wild, especially after having 4 years and 1 year, respectively, to develop an expectation that meals occur twice per day, no matter what. 

I think that if wolves had the choice, and if hunting wasn't so energetically costly (and dangerous!), they would eat more often and would prefer not to skip meals too. Hey.....wait.....isn't that how the domestic dog was borne? I think it's important to keep in mind that the reason wolves fast are not something they likely do by choice, or simply because they wish to, but something that is a harsh reality of being a wild predator who has to find and work for its food, where food may only be available once in a while, and every time they hunt may have them face survival challenges.  And I'm not entirely sure that it is healthy with the domestic dog, to gorge it one day and then skip a day of feeding, which is done in some prey-model diets.

Lee Charles Kelley

Well, I hope I've answered them. It's about building tension in the dog and teaching him that he can overcome his own internal resistance to reduce that tension. Puppies are pretty uninhibited with their teeth, and often get punished for it. So pups who grow up with this internal conflict are often unable to work past their internal resistance, and offer all kinds of alternative means of reducing tension and stress. What the pushing exercise does, essentially, is decreases that internal resistance, which is why most dogs who do it start to play more than they did before.

Sorry if I am too much of a JQP dog owner to comprehend what is going on but I did read, I did understand, but fell short of practicing.  What got me turned and confused is your response or rebuttal to others.  That is, not adequately addressing their comments and it has been in the course of days so my recollection is weak (old age too).  There is a leap one has to take.

From your simple statement above "It's about building tension in the dog and teaching him that he can overcome his own internal resistance to reduce that tension", I can scare the H E double hockey sticks out of the dog and the give him a comparable reward to bridge him "to overcome his internal resistance to reduce that tension".  But I see great risk in the behavior I want to change, increase.  Plus the dog that I am dealing with is at obsessed aggression and frankly it scares me and I believe would scare anyone. 

Added:  Sorry LCK, I see you gave an explanation regarding "prey drive" but it was under 4IC's quote.  I missed it, thinking it was something I had already read. 

FourIsCompany

I'm reading more as I go along and I am understanding more. I do think the phrase "prey drive" has a limited meaning for many people and that's why everyone is so "confused". I don't think they're thinking about it in the larger sense of attraction and desire, resistance and tenacity, but just wanting to chase bunnies.

I've got a Q for ya to ponder.....is it that prey drive has a limited meaning to "some people", or that prey drive has a pretty distinguished meaning, but that some theories are trying to re-define it into something new? I'm pretty confident that I have a rather good grasp on prey drive as a drive discussed in dog behaviour (despite the fact that ethologists and biologists use other terminology these days, drives aren't talked about as much in the scientific sense), and that it has to do directly with the predator/prey action patterns that involve obtaining food as a predator. Is it possible that prey drive already has a perfectly good definition, and that rather than the people being confused, it is that the term is being used incorrectly? That another term may be more suitable?