Natural dog training - pushing

I've been tossing around the possible value in this personally. It's long been a bit of a disappointment to me that Penny doesn't like to play with people very much. Most of the time she seems to get nervous if someone tries to play with her, and she would certainly never even make contact with someone if they had managed to get her to play. She doesn't get revved up playing with people the way she does with dogs, and it's always a subdied affair. I've often thought she seemed a little relieved when I've given up trying to play with her. That to me says there's something awry in our relationship. Over the years, I've managed to find some situations in which she will play, and get her quite into it, but I think it would have been better for both of us if her reservations about playing with me weren't there.

I'm thinking about trying it. Maybe not with Penny, but I'd like my next dog to not suddenly get it into his head that people are scary to play with and he doesn't want to do it. I should add that it's not just the play that I'm concerned about, but the underlying reason for a dog not wanting to play with me, which I perceive to be that they're just not that comfortable with me.

I wouldn't starve the dog beforehand, though.  

corvus

I wouldn't starve the dog beforehand, though.  

  I don't think withholding food for a day is really "starving" a dog. Most natural diet plans have a fasting day and there are benefits to fasting as well. Many raw feeders do 12 - 24 hour fasts on a regular basis, as a normal part of their dog's diet. The most natural way for a dog to eat is for them to stuff themselves when food is available and sometimes have days between meals.

AgileGSD

corvus

I wouldn't starve the dog beforehand, though.  

  I don't think withholding food for a day is really "starving" a dog. Most natural diet plans have a fasting day and there are benefits to fasting as well. Many raw feeders do 12 - 24 hour fasts on a regular basis, as a normal part of their dog's diet. The most natural way for a dog to eat is for them to stuff themselves when food is available and sometimes have days between meals.

..."most natural way"...?????  We are talking about a domesticated house pets who gets very use to order, structure and discipline.  Take away that order and you have a very displeased dog that will shape its behavior to avoid its displeasure and in such way that the owner will also be displeased.   I am just so taken back at how easy it is for people to manipulate a dog using food and hunger.

DPU

..."most natural way"...?????  We are talking about a domesticated house pets who gets very use to order, structure and discipline.  Take away that order and you have a very displeased dog that will shape its behavior to avoid its displeasure and in such way that the owner will also be displeased.   I am just so taken back at how easy it is for people to manipulate a dog using food and hunger.

 Actually I don't feed my dogs on a schedule, as in feed them at the exact time (s) every day. It is great - no demanding, annoying behavior from the dogs if I happen to be late with a meal for some reason (which I find displeasing :) ).

 I am not saying dogs should go without food for days but a 24 hour fast isn't going to hurt them and according to at least some dog nutrition gurus, it may even be good for them.

Ed, I'm with you - guess we don't need any more drive from the speckled monstah either.  Pushing really isn't hurting the dog physically (except I don't agree with fasting a dog for more than a meal - and even then, I usually will pop a biscuit so they don't get wound up and vomit bile   from having an empty stomach) but I don't really see the point - and in some dogs, it might just backfire and trigger obnoxiousness.  I'm also thinking that the assumption that the pushing cured the fear of grates in the Boxer is nothing more than anecdotal.  It could also have been that the dog got over a fear period or had some other experience that triggered the acceptance of walking on the grate.  For someone who is so fond of quoting the literature to defend his position, this assertion surprised me.  Willing to admit that the jury is still out, but I think you can certainly have a really well trained dog even had you never heard of this technique.  Would love to see video.

corvus

Penny doesn't like to play with people very much.

See? B'asia doesn't either. She takes the back seat to Jaia and we play with him. When we try to play with her, the best way I can describe her behavior is to say that she acts embarrassed and a little confused. I take 2 frisbees out when we go and B'asia carries hers the WHOLE time while she runs around after Jaia, herding him. Jaia brings me the frisbee and hands it to me. He's very interactive. B'asia just doesn't seem to get it.

As regards prey drive. B'asia's is high enough indeed, but not in relation to me. She'll go after a flirt pole like crazy, but with a ball or other toy, she won't bring it back. It's like she doesn't want to give up the prey. That interaction is missing.

corvus

That to me says there's something awry in our relationship.

I don't know if I think there''s anything wrong in our relationship except maybe it's something I've failed to teach her. I don't know what kind of life she had for the first 4 months but something tells me there wasn't a whole lot of interaction with humans and so now, she just doesn't "get" that we're fun to play with, too.  

I won't be starving her, either. I tried it a little and she's more than willing to push already to get whatever it is I've got. So I don't think I'll need to starve her to get her to "play". I really can see how it would help with the bond.

AgileGSD

The most natural way for a dog to eat is for them to stuff themselves when food is available and sometimes have days between meals.

I think that's the normal way a wolf would eat, but in this case I have to agree with DPU.  These are dogs that are used to order and schedules.  Take the stability of a routine away, especially something as basic as food, often times you'll end up with some undesirable results. 

Carla, that's interesting about B'asia. Penny has been with me from 8 weeks old, and she played with me as a puppy (I used to get up at 5:30 in the morning so I could play with her before school), but at some stage she just started to find it all a bit uncomfortable. If I tried to poke her or rev her up she'd give me this subdued look like she thought she wasn't meant to play with people and she wished I'd stop putting her in this untenable position where she was supposed to do something she thought she wasn't supposed to do. She acted like I was picking on her instead of trying to initiate a game. If she gets excited, she looks for another dog to chase.

So in her case, I think something did go wrong, in that she was playing with me and then she stopped. I was doing a lot of traditional stuff back then, so it's possible that's part of why she stopped playing with me. I was leash popping corrections she didn't even understand, so maybe she just decided it was better to keep her distance, the same way she decided she wanted to walk as far away from me as possible rather than heeling like we'd been practicing.

Keep me posted on how B'asia goes with pushing.

I think the idea behind the Natural Dog Training thing is that you're not so much encouraging more prey drive, just giving it an ideal outlet. But I do wonder if encouraging prey drive results in an increase in the expression of prey drive across the board. What do you do with a dog that gets excited a lot and constantly wants to push to deal with that excitement once you've taught them that it's the accepted way to deal with it?

I'm of two minds about this thing. Part of me thinks dogs have got prey drive to some extent no matter what and the best we can do is embrace that about them and find a way to help them express that prey drive in acceptable manners. But a lot of people have expressed the thought that encouraging prey drive will make it worse (and not just board members). Obviously, with a couple of prey animals running around the house, the last thing I want to do is increase the prey drive in any dogs living with us. But at the same time, I love prey drive as much as I love the antithesis to prey drive in my prey animals - the thing that means my prey animals will startle and run and hide and be frightened by some things my predatory animals enjoy. It's fundamental to who and what they are.

Would a dog who is encouraged to express their prey drive become more prey-driven and more interested in prey animals, or are they just offered a suitable way to release that energy and thus we see it more often? Seeing what was obscured by not being able to release all that energy they are capable of?

And what about dogs that want to go all the way and bite and kill an animal to the point where they are not particularly interested in playing? Even assuming this method allows for a release of all that energy, can we possibly push enough to meet the constant demand?

As for fasting.... all of our dogs have been fasted at one time or another, whether because they've gorged themselves on something, or they're sick, or whatever. They never showed much in the way of distress or even really looked for food, but none of them were fed on a regular schedule at the time. The three current dogs aren't generally fasted, but they've become rather more intense about meal times than they and the other dogs were around the time they were being fasted. I don't think those two things are connected at all, just a coincidence. 

AgileGSD

 Actually I don't feed my dogs on a schedule, as in feed them at the exact time (s) every day. It is great - no demanding, annoying behavior from the dogs if I happen to be late with a meal for some reason (which I find displeasing :) ).

 I am not saying dogs should go without food for days but a 24 hour fast isn't going to hurt them and according to at least some dog nutrition gurus, it may even be good for them.

So this is what all dog owners should do?   Seems to me not a very good way, medically speaking.  I see strong emotions being attached with a dog's basic surivival need, not to mention the dog may not be eatng in peace.  Isn't this type of intentional feeding just that silly old dominance urge of humans over dogs?

I don't see the point in this exercise.  I've read carefully and I just can't see any reason to do it.

Nor will I withhold food.  We don't have a rigid schedule.  We have an "about then" schedule.  They don't put us on a stop watch, but if we've managed to go more than 30 minutes past supper time, yes, we will get some pointed looks.  No one is annoying though.

I'm just not clear on why I would want to manipulate my dogs behavior so much.

glenmar

I don't see the point in this exercise.  I've read carefully and I just can't see any reason to do it.

Nor will I withhold food.  We don't have a rigid schedule.  We have an "about then" schedule.  They don't put us on a stop watch, but if we've managed to go more than 30 minutes past supper time, yes, we will get some pointed looks.  No one is annoying though.

I'm just not clear on why I would want to manipulate my dogs behavior so much.

You wouldn't, but some humans are just such control freaks.

I must say that I don't really think the exercise is any more harmful than playing tug (except the fasting part - some dogs actually do have a problem on an empty stomach - they are not wild, and their ancestors have not been deprived of food in that way for eons).  But, I don't see the point either, and tend to regard it as just another theory that someone dreamed up to sell books and promote business.   

corvus

I think the idea behind the Natural Dog Training thing is that you're not so much encouraging more prey drive, just giving it an ideal outlet.

That's exactly how I see it. I know when I started working with the flirt pole, I saw a dramatic difference in both Shepherds' overall demeanor. They were more relaxed, slept better, ate better, and listened to me better. Giving the "stress" of the unexpressed prey drive a good outlet seemed to have a balancing and calming effect over the dogs' general conduct and bearing. Does that make sense? They are more content.

corvus

What do you do with a dog that gets excited a lot and constantly wants to push to deal with that excitement once you've taught them that it's the accepted way to deal with it?

I'm adding the command, "Push" so she'll know when it's acceptable to do that and I'm keeping a close eye on her behavior to see if she's being 'pushy' in other ways. So far, it's just the opposite. She already knows "Easy" for taking food from my hand, so when I don't have my hand on her chest and use the word 'easy' it's like feeding a deer. LOL I think it's all about balance.

corvus

Even assuming this method allows for a release of all that energy, can we possibly push enough to meet the constant demand?

For me, B'asia has plenty of opportunity to express her prey drive. She herds the other dogs and chases the flirt pole, frisbees and balls (play drive = prey drive)... So the pushing itself is not so much about expressing the prey drive as giving her the confidence to know how to respond in situations where now, her only outlet is aggression. With Penny, I would expect it to give her the confidence to play with you (and people) again and feel more generally confident.

My dogs' eating schedule isn't rigid. I feed them anywhere from 6-8 AM and PM and never hear or see a complaint. And I don't believe fasting a dog for this is necessary. It's not for B'asia, anyway. I'll be feeding her less during training so she won't get overweight, but she's picking this up just fine as long as the food is good enough. She LOVES Natural Balance food rolls and I feed them a variety or foods (people foods) so this will just be part of her regular day's intake, although spread throughout the day instead of taken all at once.

glenmar

I don't see the point in this exercise.  I've read carefully and I just can't see any reason to do it.

If your dogs all have great confidence and no behavior problems, anxiety issues or stress; if they all behave just as you want them to and are calm, confident and obedient, then I wouldn't see any reason to, either. I think this is more for dogs with behavioral issues.

Control freak or not, I have a dog with a slight behavior issue and I want to deal with it face-on instead of "managing her" by locking her in a crate or something and pretending that it doesn't exist so I don't have to do anything about it.

Edit: Above, I said "(play drive = prey drive)" and I want to correct that to say that while they are not 100% equal, I believe that they are heavily intertwined. 

FourIsCompany

For me, B'asia has plenty of opportunity to express her prey drive. She herds the other dogs and chases the flirt pole, frisbees and balls (play drive = prey drive)... So the pushing itself is not so much about expressing the prey drive as giving her the confidence to know how to respond in situations where now, her only outlet is aggression. With Penny, I would expect it to give her the confidence to play with you (and people) again and feel more generally confident.

I am getting quite confused with the use of words "prey drive" and then associating that with aggressive behavior where in a typical home, aggression is fear based and a defensive response for survival.

 Did you read this? Swimming Upstream

Especially the 3 paragraphs beginning "All aggression is based on fear." That might help your understanding. It did mine, because I didn't get it at first, either.

Corvus was talking about prey drive so I talked about that, too. Pushing is about confidence, not necessarily prey drive. (LCK correct me if I'm wrong here) 

FourIsCompany

 Did you read this? Swimming Upstream

Yes, twice and I will a 3rd time, but I need to understand how "prey drive" fits in since the excercise affects the magnitude or its intensity.  From a JQP perspective, I always looked at "prey drive" as an instinctual behavior but a behavior standing all by itself.  So in other words I don't always think of "prey drive" as always being associated with food or the only means to satisfy hunger.