Thoughts on food and food rewards

    • Gold Top Dog

    Thoughts on food and food rewards

    I'm sorry to drag this up again, but I'm just feeling vaguely bothered by the use of food right now. I think DPU has been having a sub-conscious effect on me.

    My thought is, what if by using treats as rewards in everyday training with a food motivated dog, you actually diminish the value of food and then cripple yourself a little when you need really high value rewards?

    If food is always used in the learning process, is a jackpot really a jackpot?

    I know that most people use higher value food items and lower value food items to match the level of motivation they're after, but I'm just wondering.... with Penny at least, she doesn't really care that much about good food and mediocre food. It's all food to her, and if it comes out of the hands of a person, chances are it's fantastic. I'm assuming this idea has been reinforced quite a lot during her life, and I don't have an especial problem with it, I just wonder if by rewarding her with any kind of food, she's got the idea that food from hands is always fantastic and if she gets something mediocre, she just figures she need only wait for the high value stuff she knows is there somewhere (even though it's not).

    Perhaps some of what David has been saying has some truth in it, and by using food as a reward you create a habitual learning environment dependent to a degree on the presence of food. The way Penny doesn't learn so great when food is there, but learns fast when I teach with praise when out on walks, because that's the way I have generally taught her things in the past. Now, she's a highly food-motivated dog, but she has learnt fine without it and is at this moment one of the most reliably obedient dogs I personally know (I don't know many dogs).

    And, inevitably, I'm influenced by my hare, who doesn't respond to food or praise, but for the sake of communication can achieve some incredible things and does tend to respond to my emotional state better than the dog does. He's certainly not trained in the sense that dogs are, but I've generally been able to influence his behaviour just through finding ways to communicate with him. He's not a social animal, but he lives in a social group and he likes harmony in the group, and if he happens across a behaviour that increases the group harmony, or makes members of the group happy, he tends towards that behaviour more often as long as it doesn't conflict with his own happiness.

    So what I'm finding myself thinking is that food is an obvious reward, and definitely a good way to get animals to do something they wouldn't normally do, but maybe its obviousness is a little blinding and it's easy to use it where something more subtle might work just as well and have some surprising, positive side-effects.

    As I said in another thread, I'm also wondering about food and competition in dogs. Our dogs at home are very well fed and get regular meals, but they still behave competetively about food towards one another. I'm wondering if this is some of Penny's problem with food obsession, and if it might be sensible to completely eliminate perceived competetion by feeding in crates.

    This is just the tip of the iceberg of my see-sawing ideas on food at the moment, folks. I'd love to have a lovely, deep discussion about the merits and possible disadvantages of food both in training and in everyday living with dogs. Let's discuss some wild possibilities just for the sake of it. I haven't made my mind up about food yet, and I need lots of input.

    BTW, I almost put this post in the training section. I'm still not really sure whether it belongs here, but I guess I'm talking not just about food in training, but in general life as well.
     


    • Gold Top Dog

    My opinion is... wow you are really over thinking about this. Sometimes when we over think about things we skip over the right answers.

    corvus

    So what I'm finding myself thinking is that food is an obvious reward, and definitely a good way to get animals to do something they wouldn't normally do, but maybe its obviousness is a little blinding and it's easy to use it where something more subtle might work just as well and have some surprising, positive side-effects.

    Food isn't an obvious award. My neighbors dog won't take treats; he likes vocal and physical praise. But my dog on the other hand is extremely food driven and will do anything for her NB treats. Just do whatever works for your dog; no need to over think it... As long as you are keeping snacks to 10% or less of their diet they you shouldn't feel guilty. Snacks/treats are part of a BALANCED nutrition. So why not make it fun by using the treats for training?

    corvus

    I'm also wondering about food and competition in dogs. Our dogs at home are very well fed and get regular meals, but they still behave competetively about food towards one another. I'm wondering if this is some of Penny's problem with food obsession, and if it might be sensible to completely eliminate perceived competetion by feeding in crates.

    Well think of WOLVES; they are scavangers. No matter how much I feed my dog she'll always beg for more. That's just DOGS if you ask me. The only way to stop that is by training them not to.

    Our Sheltie "Meeko" is extremely protective and competitive with food. If there is another dog around and she smells food, she'll snarl and show her teeth as if saying "HEY! remember... I'm first if we get anything"

    If your dogs are competing over one anothers food then you need to correct that. Your dogs aren't in charge of the food, YOU are in charge of the food. Correct them.

    corvus

    My thought is, what if by using treats as rewards in everyday training with a food motivated dog, you actually diminish the value of food and then cripple yourself a little when you need really high value rewards?

    That would never happen... That is just insanely over thinking about it.

    I had no idea people actually got this confused about whether or not to use food during training.

    Physical & vocal praise alone would NEVER work in my household. Why? Because my dog is physically & vocally praised on a regular basis for just existing. Maybe if I withdrew affection from my dog and starved her for attention, then ya it would work. But in my house, food is what we start off with (click then treat).

    I'm deff not ashamed of a owning a food driven dog; nor am I ashamed that at my job this is what we use during training as well.

    corvus

    I'm talking not just about food in training, but in general life as well.

    Live with Giants who control your actions and diet. You too would do anything for food & praise.

    The only way I could see this being confusing is not understanding how dependent our dogs are on us. They are PETS... they don't need to be over analyzed.

     

    Best of Luck in finding the answers that you are looking for... I didn't read the other threads so I guess I'm just confused on why this is a big debate for you. Hopefully by watching this thread I can understand where you are coming from more

    • Gold Top Dog

    corvus
    with Penny at least, she doesn't really care that much about good food and mediocre food. It's all food to her, and if it comes out of the hands of a person, chances are it's fantastic.

     

    You could be describing Cara here. It doesn't seem to matter to her if it's a piece of kibble or roast chicken. It's food and GIMME!  I don't use food to train Cara because it's too distracting. She's not "learning" she's doing what she needs to do to get the food. When the food is gone, there is no motivation. And anything I taught her is irrelevant to her.

    corvus
    Perhaps some of what David has been saying has some truth in it

     

    Of course it does. Some of what we all say has some truth. But we're just not going to agree 100%. And that's ok. I think DPU is one extreme, but he makes some sense! LOL

    corvus
    So what I'm finding myself thinking is that food is an obvious reward, and definitely a good way to get animals to do something they wouldn't normally do, but maybe its obviousness is a little blinding and it's easy to use it where something more subtle might work just as well and have some surprising, positive side-effects.

     

    Well-said. I much prefer praise because it lends to the bonding aspect of our relationship. There's a lot more communication when I take the dogs face in my hands and praise her and scratch her neck instead of tossing a piece of food. It takes longer, and yes, food works, but IME, praise and communication work better.

    I use some food. The dog never knows what it's going to get for doing the right thing, but they seem to really try harder to concentrate or something when there's not food involved.  

    corvus
    I'm wondering if this is some of Penny's problem with food obsession, and if it might be sensible to completely eliminate perceived competetion by feeding in crates.

     

    As you know, I'm totally against this, because in my opinion, not only does it eliminate competition, it eliminates the practice of self-control and the owner avoids correcting a dog's rude behavior. I hear about so many people sticking the dog in a crate or feeding in separate rooms to avoid teaching manners and keep the dog from being rude. But that doesn't keep the dog from being rude, it makes it impossible for the dog to be rude. It takes away the option. It makes the owner feel good because they didn't have to correct the dog. They just took away the option.

    And I don't mean to sound critical, but I know that does. I'm sorry. I just don't know of a better way to say it. But I will say that if people want to do that, it's fine by me. It's their life, their dogs, their choice.

    Cara eats right with the other dogs, but she wouldn't consider taking someone else's food or protecting hers... maybe because she's never had to? Has Penny always competed for food? How does she act? What would happen if you fed your dogs together?

    • Gold Top Dog

    Pomeranian <3
    wow you are really over thinking about this.

    corvus is a thinker and a scientist. Of course she's analyzing it to death. But that's ok. That's who she is and we love her for it! LOL Stick out tongue
     

    • Gold Top Dog

    I use food as a tool in teaching. "Teaching" being the aquisition of behaviour. Once a behaviour is learned, food rewards (or reward in general) transfers over onto life rewards - the dog doing A to be able to do B. A couple of exceptions to these are:
    - Recall. By this I mean my "drop what you are doing and come now" recall, not my "okay, we're going now" cues. For dogs that love food I will always use high-value food rewards to teach and maintain a strong recall. For something so important in a dog's life, I am willing to give up a piece of liver if my dog comes each and every time.
    - Fun tricks that aren't typically useful in everyday life. Things like cleaning up toys, or spinning. I will occasionally pop out a minor food reward treat for that.

    But in speaking only for myself, I work with what the dog wants, and try not to let my own thoughts get in the way too much. So I use a wide variety of toys, touch, play, and treats, to get to my goals. Some dogs I've taught basically only with toys. Some dogs I"ve taught with a combination of all of the above, depending on the situation. Some dogs I've used mainly treats for. I let the dog tell me what is most reinforcing, and I use it. SUPER high value items, regardless of what it is, comes with SUPER performance. Medium value rewards come with medium performance, and lower value rewards come for ho-hum performance.

    For Gaci, for instance, she loves tug, she loves to chase things, she loves to play "catch me", she loves to run free, she loves food. When working she's not that into touch, and while she enjoys touch it isn't high on her "reinforcement" list - mainly because I use touch a lot in the form of affection, and I don't tend to use it as something a dog has to work for. Affection is something I give freely, independent of behaviour (I consider affection and attention separate things). I usually use affection along with all forms of rewards, when rewarding, so I don't consider using it on its own.

    For Shimmer, now, she loves affection and attention. She thrives with it, and finds it normally very reinforcing. This girl will work with you for lovin' alone! She also loves food, and likes toys in a so-so manner. But most of all she likes knowing her person loves her.

    So I use these things with each dog differently, I don't take a "one reward fits all" approach with animals, as the most efficient teaching and learning comes from using what the dog actually cares about.

    In terms of food, though, I have never experienced what you describe above. Now, perhaps it is because I use a variety of reinforcements, but even in dogs I've worked with with mostly food, I have never had dogs "depend" on food. Dependence on food is, IMO, a failure of the use of food as a reward, rather than the fact that food was used. It's no different than having a dog dependent on a certain toy, or dependent on touch, or dependent on anything. Dependence is never a good thing no matter what you use as a reward, so if you have dependence, chances are your goals have gone awry somewhere. My dogs will do the behaviours they know despite the reward they may get, not knowing which reward they may get at any given time.

    Dependence on food (or anything) also I think inhibits learning, rather than promoting learning, as it diverts the dog's focus and attention away from the task at hand and onto the depended item.

    Your dog is not what I would consider a "normal" dog, in the sense that she has an abnormal fascination with food (going by what you have described to us). So you really can't based an entire book of knowledge on this one dog. It's extremely valuable information, as you now have the experience of working with an animal that has something that goes beyond "reinforcer", bordering on "addiction". This will give you valuable information and insight into future work with dogs. But one exception, as you know, doesn't make it the rule. I have not worked with personally, although I have known, an actual food-obsessed dog. So one would say you have a foundation of knowledge and experience that I do not. Now, I don't know if I'm just lucky, or if there is a reason my dogs have not become food obsessed. I lean towards the latter, since I have experienced in my personal life a very large number of dogs compared to the norm, so my sample size is quite large.

    My basic experience in animal teachings, of various breeds and personalities, has not created animals that are dependent upon a certain stimulus. So I don't for a second believe that as a rule you create a habitual environment in which a dog depends on the food. I wouldn't say your dog just finds food "a high value", it goes a lot beyond that, beyond value as a teaching tool, and into something that for this dog, creates an imbalance and altered mind state. It's like heroin for a drug addict - it's not just a high-value reward, it's goes much deeper than that.

    Food is not a requirement for a well-mannered dog. But it's something that I use as a part of my toolkit when I feel it would be the best option. You hvae found that praise works best for Penny, that to me sounds like you have done your homework and found a proper reinforcer for her. Keep at it, and keep using it. That's awesome! But I think if you have more dogs in the future, the more dogs you experience the more you learn that every dog has its own likes and dislikes, and will communicate that to you as you share your life with them.

    I agree that food can be the easy answer for some, if they do not look into all of the possible things their dog (animal) finds reinforcing. And engaging in good discussion with dog folks will hopefully reveal that fact. But if the dog learns well with treat, is not dependent on treats, is not unhealthy due to the treats, then by golly it's not my job to say they should try to use toys or praise. On the other hand it's not just the easy answer for everyone. It is used part and parcel as a package in which to teach our animals. I think as soon as some folks hear "food" they picture these treat-eating machines that function for nothing else, and live for nothing else, when in reality when I say "use food rewards" it might be for every third behaviour, or every tenth, or for two teaching sessions and then not again. It's really quite variable, and situation and dog-specific.

    In terms of competition, there is competition amongst all species for all things. That's how life is. Food is one of those things. But there are no huage problems here, we can throw lettuce on the floor after supper and all 14 dogs will happily eat without so much as a grumble. I'll place 10 Kongs or so down (not all dogs care for stuffed Kongs) and not even have to blink at whether there may be an issue, it's a non-issue. Part of the competition in dogs is inherent, part of it though is simply whether or not the dogs feel they need to compete for food. In our home there isn't a lot of need for competition, the dogs feel secure that they will get food so they don't have to fight for it. I'm proud to say that in the home so far I've never had to interfere when it came to food between the dogs.

    You might try feeding in crates and see what happens. Most of the dogs here eat their meals in kennels (four eat in the open kitchen), as it's just easier, and it has also had the benefit of classically conditioned them to really love their kennels. It's always worth giving it a shot if you think it might make a difference!

    • Gold Top Dog

    FourIsCompany

    Pomeranian <3
    wow you are really over thinking about this.

    corvus is a thinker and a scientist. Of course she's analyzing it to death. But that's ok. That's who she is and we lover her for it! LOL Stick out tongue
     

    lol I am now realizing this but after I read that I wanted to be like "do you need a hug?! it's going to be okay... it's just food"

    It's interesting to read something in depth like that; but with my training techniques I try to never generalize and never rule out any option. I find when dealing with simple minded creatures we in return have to think a little more simple minded (but that's just me). Now I'm not saying dogs are dumb, but they don't sit there analyzing us so I don't want to analyze them.

    I agree with what you just posted FourIsCompany about the correction during feeding. All though crating is an option, method, and if it works for some people that's fine; but personally I like to redirect and correct all negative behaviors in the household. (especially with FOOD! Food is like POWER in the animal kingdom. I always felt food was the good comparison to Human LAND)

    Well I'm off to my SECOND job... which happens to be training dogs (where we use clicker/treats). It's beginners night... mmm puppies.

    Eager to see where this leads!

    • Gold Top Dog

    Well, the dogs do get fed together, and have in the past, like I said, with no problems. The problems arose when the food was no longer boring kibble but most-awesomest-food-in-the-world raw mix. Penny still gets fed with Jill, but Pyry gets fed apart. I'm not really sure what the story is as it's my mother's setup, not mine. Anyway, Penny and Jill are okay together mostly, but I guess they still get watched, not that this is a problem as it takes Penny approximately 30 seconds to inhale her meal and then another 30 seconds to gather up the courage to go for Jill's food if she's going to, by which time Jill is normally almost done. I guess I'm over-stating this problem a bit. It's not like Penny steals every mealtime, I just wouldn't trust her. And she'll try it on with any new dog for sure. She knows I'm going to go crook at her if she steals, and she knows there's a good chance the other dog will have a go at her, but sometimes she just doesn't care and will do it anyway. I can and have body-blocked her, scolded her, backed her up, called her over and put her in a sit next to me, given her a time-out, and in the end none of it worked. I'm not dishing out any punishment equal to or worse than what the other dog might do to her, and I'm not going to stop the other dog from doing it to her as long as I think it will scare her but not hurt her. Does she learn restraint? Nope. She just learns to wait until the other dog isn't looking and the people are a few steps away so they can't stop her for a few moments. So you tell me. If she'll risk getting beaten up for stolen food, then I doubt there's anything I can do short of physically preventing her from getting to the food to stop her stealing. It's not a major problem and she's not doing it every meal or even often, really, she just can't be trusted is all. With a new puppy on the horizon, I want have some idea of how I'm going to handle the inevitable moment that Penny pushes the puppy aside and eats his meal. Common sense tells me the best way to handle it would be to not allow it to happen in the first place, knowing what I do about Penny's food drive and how little reward she requires for the reward to outweigh all the negatives.

    Pomeranian, sometimes I like to thoroughly overthink something because I turn up things I've never thought of before, and just because I've never thought of them before doesn't mean they're not true or at least worth a closer look. I'm a very thorough thinker.

    As for food motivation, like I said, Penny is highly food motivated, but like Carla, I didn't use food to train her because I thought it was just too distracting and she was responding better to praise. My point was, food was the obvious choice, but I didn't take it and Penny still turned out to be a lovely, biddable dog. I think I've been lucky, but I don't want to dismiss everything I've done with Penny just because I've developed a lot and had a lot more experience since. I'm open to the idea that a dog won't do anything unless treats are involved - it's about the only way to manage Pyry, but I just want to explore all the facets of food before I go down that path. If I've got some gut feeling telling me to be wary of food, I want to know what it's all about.

    And for the record, corrections are the only thing I regret doing with Penny, so I'm done with them for the time being. The most I'll do is an "ah-ah" and walking her back with a body-block. Or sending her to bed, I guess. And I've already done all of those to no effect.

    • Gold Top Dog

    Kim_MacMillan
    Part of the competition in dogs is inherent, part of it though is simply whether or not the dogs feel they need to compete for food. In our home there isn't a lot of need for competition, the dogs feel secure that they will get food so they don't have to fight for it.

    I don't want to derail the thread, but I'm wondering about my own situation. My 2 labs have actually fought over a leaf in the yard (one was chewing on it out on the lawn and the other ran to investigate). They've fought over a chewed up rawhide and the last fight was over something (mouse?) in the bushes. Per the behaviorist, we not only feed them separately, we feed them in areas where they can't even watch the other eat. I'm guessing this might have been something we could've managed if we'd raised them together, but Buffy was 6 when we brought Sassy home from the shelter (she was approx 2). Buffy's 12 now, so I'm not interested in trying to work this out with them now, but I'm just wondering for future dogs, is it something in the way you work with the dogs that makes it possible to hand out food and treats like that?

    • Gold Top Dog

    I should probably mention that I am not considering waving goodbye to treats in my tool box period.Smile I said once before that treats and clicking broke through Bonnie's anti-human wall where nothing else did, and now she's so-so about treats but nuts about affection. I'm not discounting the benefits of food. I'm envisioning using high value food treats for important things I want to be very reliable. I'm just considering my options, especially considering how stupid Penny gets about food. I'm kind of thinking training another dog would be easier without treats if Penny is around, but then, we'll see. 

    Thanks Kim for acknowledging that Penny is not normal about food! She's not. And she's actually been getting worse recently, I think. Last time I spoke to Mum about it, she said Penny wouldn't even go for a walk until she'd checked all the dog bowls, which she had already checked the previous night, but couldn't leave the yard until she'd checked them all again. I'm really just wondering if she might improve if I tried to eliminate what she sees as competition and just didn't let her have access to bowls if they're empty and not give her a chance to go and oggle other dog's food and that kind of thing. 

    I was planning on just playing it by ear and seeing how we go. I'm just wary seeing as I don't really know how this food obsession of Penny's came about and I don't really want another one like that! And once she's had a small food reward for something, it's just crazy hard to break the habit that immediately forms. It does mean I've got a good tool for getting her attention, though, even in very stimulating and exciting environments.  

    • Gold Top Dog

    corvus
    I'm just considering my options, especially considering how stupid Penny gets about food.

    And that is a very wise thing to do. :-) That's how we all get to where we are, and how I learned just what value different things were to my girls. You have to think, to observe, to question, and to try things out. If they work, great! If they don't work, ditch them and try something else. That's pretty much how I work *G*

    corvus
    I'm really just wondering if she might improve if I tried to eliminate what she sees as competition and just didn't let her have access to bowls if they're empty and not give her a chance to go and oggle other dog's food and that kind of thing. 

    I don't know if that would solve the issue. It really sounds pathological with your girl, and I question if there is some actual OCD-like symptoms occurring, by the sounds of what you are describing. I really think that while food is the precursor, there's something much more gonig on than simply looking for food, it sounds quite anxiety/stress based and quite obsessive.

    corvus
    I'm just wary seeing as I don't really know how this food obsession of Penny's came about and I don't really want another one like that!

    I completely understand, it must be hard living with a dog showing those symptoms, and not knowing how to deal with it and manage it. And I certainly wouldn't want another dog like that either! So I fully understand where this wariness comes about, I was just presenting the side that something like that really is the "exception" to the rule, and I honestly doubt that this obsession arose from training with treats. I have a suspicion it might have been maintained with that, but started much earlier and the predispositions were there beforehand. Something that pathological doesn't occur simply by teaching with treats alone, there has to be some other basis going on (and this could be neurochemical, genetics, etc, and the food just happened to be the precursor).

    Speaking of food, I happened upon this pic today and it's relevant so thought I'd share it, it's kind of cute. I had just finished a teaching session in which I had used food, and I realized I didn't put the food bowl away. I looked over and this is what I happened to see:


    The girls didn't even touch the bowl, and fell asleep (well, Gaci woke up at the beep of the camera turning on, but didn't move) on the bed. But it's a good example portraying that even though food can be used as one part of teaching, it doesn't turn them into maniacs. :-)

     

    • Gold Top Dog

    FourIsCompany

    corvus
    Perhaps some of what David has been saying has some truth in it

     

    Of course it does. Some of what we all say has some truth. But we're just not going to agree 100%. And that's ok. I think DPU is one extreme, but he makes some sense! LOL

    Its not fair to label me an extremist just because I have learned a lot from dogs that have been put in extreme health situations by others.  That is, they come to me in varying states of starvation or are overweight or are obsessed with one thing or another.  BTW, rehabbing an overweight dog is much more difficult but less emotionally draining. 

    I bring foster dogs into an environment of relationship building, bonding, and trust.  The environment is created by me and the existing pack.  There is no training and no expectations other than to learn the COME command and potty training.  They are then on their own to become part of strong stable social group.  I work on satisfying their needs, their lowest needs first, like food, so as we move up the ladder to higher level needs, the lower needs don't interfer.  So in other words, in raising the new adult dog, which has a lot of history of whatever, I start from scratch.  I have an order and a structure in place that seems to alter the drivers/motivators of the dog.  Not that the original drivers disappear but are naturally changed in their value by the home I give the dog. 

    Some members here give good explanations and ways on how to deal with obsessive behavior.  Some even go so far as to say there is something mentally wrong with the dog, the dog is not normal.   But the question should be how did the dog get to that state and what were the initial signs that were left unnoticed until the behavior becomes extreme.  I have seen here that some of the most knowledgeable members nip this in the bud on a very casual basis but then I also see here some of most knowledgeable not recognizing their own dog has obsessive behavior. 

     

     

    • Gold Top Dog

    corvus

    Thanks Kim for acknowledging that Penny is not normal about food! She's not. And she's actually been getting worse recently, I think.

    But that doesn't mean she can't get to normal.  Remember my true SA hound name Marvin.  Of course you do.  He got adopted and I was so worried about the transition and him reverting to his original state of SA.   Nope, not a problem...at least in the past 3 weeks.  This dog was an extreme and I remeber one member telliing me to PTS this foster and save one that is adoptable.  So again, if dog owners were aware of the initial signs maybe these extreme conditions can be avoided. 

    • Gold Top Dog

    corvus
    The most I'll do is an "ah-ah" and walking her back with a body-block.

     

    That's all I do. Verbal corrections. I don't hit or kick my dogs.  Smile

    And DPU, I didn't "label you an extremist"! LOL  

    • Gold Top Dog

    corvus

    I should probably mention that I am not considering waving goodbye to treats in my tool box period.. It does mean I've got a good tool for getting her attention, though, even in very stimulating and exciting environments.  

    You should not.  Giving treats with no strings attached strengthens the relationship, bond, and trust....thus making affection highly valued.

    • Gold Top Dog

    corvus

    I'm sorry to drag this up again, but I'm just feeling vaguely bothered by the use of food right now. I think DPU has been having a sub-conscious effect on me.

    My thought is, what if by using treats as rewards in everyday training with a food motivated dog, you actually diminish the value of food and then cripple yourself a little when you need really high value rewards?

    If food is always used in the learning process, is a jackpot really a jackpot?

     

    I think this depends on the dog.  For Jack, food is food is food and it's always FANTASTIC!!!!!!!!  I have given him pills by hand by acting like they are treats.  All his supplements are just put on top his food--no need to hide them.

    You know how many trainers tell you NOT to feed the dog before class to make them a bit more eager for treats?  Well, with Jack, I deliberately feed him BEFORE class so as to take the food motivation down a notch from insane to merely intense.

    Honestly, I think the only way I could *maybe* unmotivate him when it comes to food is to free feed him (and even then I doubt he would be any less into food), which would essentially cripple him due to his elbow dysplasia.

    I try to use treats to train a behavior, then mostly praise thereafter, with treats thrown in here and there.  This is not because I think he'll get bored, but just because I want to be sure that he has actually learned what I wanted.  I ALWAYS use treats for coming when called though, and use them a lot when he is off leash or on a long line and "checks in" on his own. 

    He likes praise and is very into my attention, so that makes it a bit easier.  I have also recently experimented with using toys as a reward (which he is much more into than Sally)