Thoughts on food and food rewards

Since I am not prone to long posts, I haven't figured out how to do the alternating quote thing (not a great student of HTML) so I will bold my answers, if you don't mind...

I'm sorry to drag this up again, but I'm just feeling vaguely bothered by the use of food right now. I think DPU has been having a sub-conscious effect on me.

I don't mind you bringing up the subject again, but if you have David in your subconscious mind, you'd better get him outta there before he does some serious damage LOL.
 

My thought is, what if by using treats as rewards in everyday training with a food motivated dog, you actually diminish the value of food and then cripple yourself a little when you need really high value rewards?

If you use a less valuable reward for everyday (bits of Cheerios, or kibble, perhaps) and a high value food for difficult situations (garlic roast beef, or maybe liver brownies), then you really don't need to worry about this.  The strength of using food, or any other reinforcer, does not lie in keeping on using it forever.  It's really just a tool to get the dog to understand that he just did the right thing, and once he knows that particular behavior and its cue, you aren't going to be using food every time, just intermittently, for that particular behavior.  

If food is always used in the learning process, is a jackpot really a jackpot? 

I find that dogs do understand that several bits of food, as opposed to only one bit of food, is a jackpot.

I know that most people use higher value food items and lower value food items to match the level of motivation they're after, but I'm just wondering.... with Penny at least, she doesn't really care that much about good food and mediocre food. It's all food to her, and if it comes out of the hands of a person, chances are it's fantastic. I'm assuming this idea has been reinforced quite a lot during her life, and I don't have an especial problem with it, I just wonder if by rewarding her with any kind of food, she's got the idea that food from hands is always fantastic and if she gets something mediocre, she just figures she need only wait for the high value stuff she knows is there somewhere (even though it's not).

I really think it's ok if my dogs think that only wonderful things come from my hands, and I have not found that to be a problem.  So what if she waits for the high value food.  The way it works in my house is that if I ask for a behavior and the dog complies, he/she will get a reward.  The reward could be anything they normally like - food, toy, go out, butt scritch, verbal praise, etc.  They never know what it will be, but that is what keeps them doing as I ask - hope.  And, occasionally, their hope materializes into a really cool reward - liver, frisbee, tripe, whatever.

Perhaps some of what David has been saying has some truth in it, and by using food as a reward you create a habitual learning environment dependent to a degree on the presence of food. The way Penny doesn't learn so great when food is there, but learns fast when I teach with praise when out on walks, because that's the way I have generally taught her things in the past. Now, she's a highly food-motivated dog, but she has learnt fine without it and is at this moment one of the most reliably obedient dogs I personally know (I don't know many dogs).

All this tells me is that somewhere along the way, she has been shown food BEFORE she exhibits behavior.  So, for example, you may have lured too many times.  You may be accidentally crinkling the treat bag, etc.   Try training with voice but back it up with treats that come from somewhere other than your person.  For example, hide the rewards up on top of the fridge - she gets the behavior correct, you praise, but then you both run quickly to the fridge where you suddenly make a tidbit appear!  How cool is that?  She will think you are the most fun.  The reason she has learned without food is that she is a working breed, pre-programmed to work well with humans.  I can train Sequoyah to do new behaviors with or without food, with or without a frisbee...  But, some breeds are more disposed toward independence.  So, my advice is that we always need to use a reinforcer that the DOG wants, and is willing to work for.  Where I get cranky is when people want to force the dog to learn with the motivators that the people think the dog should want, and usually they are less successful than trainers who try to determine their dogs' favorite reinforcers and use them to their advantage in the training process.   Just like us, not all dogs are created equal.   If I tried to train Sioux using a frisbee, she would just stare blankly into space.  She wants liver brownies.  For Sequoyah, the frisbee is better than steak. 

And, inevitably, I'm influenced by my hare, who doesn't respond to food or praise, but for the sake of communication can achieve some incredible things and does tend to respond to my emotional state better than the dog does. He's certainly not trained in the sense that dogs are, but I've generally been able to influence his behaviour just through finding ways to communicate with him. He's not a social animal, but he lives in a social group and he likes harmony in the group, and if he happens across a behaviour that increases the group harmony, or makes members of the group happy, he tends towards that behaviour more often as long as it doesn't conflict with his own happiness.

A little OT, but I liked this article about taming feral rabbits.  For them, KP suggests timing the click, at first, with when the rabbit takes a bite of food voluntarily - that way the click still gets associated with food.  A bit different than the way we usually charge the clicker for the dog, by clicking and following the click with a treat.
Anyway, interesting reading: http://www.clickertraining.com/node/26

So what I'm finding myself thinking is that food is an obvious reward, and definitely a good way to get animals to do something they wouldn't normally do, but maybe its obviousness is a little blinding and it's easy to use it where something more subtle might work just as well and have some surprising, positive side-effects.

Again, I think that we create "obviousness" ourselves by letting the animal know that the food is present.  When we are more subtle, as with the refrigerator scenario, they tend to be less blinded.  That's not to say that something more subtle than the inevitable food doesn't work, but that, alas, depends on the dog.  Subtle is frequently less effective with Bulldogs than with Beaucerons...

As I said in another thread, I'm also wondering about food and competition in dogs. Our dogs at home are very well fed and get regular meals, but they still behave competetively about food towards one another. I'm wondering if this is some of Penny's problem with food obsession, and if it might be sensible to completely eliminate perceived competetion by feeding in crates.

Yes!!!  The only time my dogs are "fed" together is when I am asking them to perform behaviors in each other's presence.  So, for example, if I want to work on "down" with distractions, I might ask Sioux to "down" while the other two get a cookie. But, for doing it, once I release her, she might get to run to the bedroom with me and those silly other dogs only got biscuits, but the liver brownie was in the bedroom!  Or, I might just reward her, then ask the other two to "down" or "high five" or some other behavior.  They also learn that when they are together, great things tend to happen for all of them, especially if they do as I ask.  

I crate my girls in my room, and feed Maska in the kitchen.  They never have to compete for food on their own.  This has also had the effect that the whole pack of them will lick my plate, all tongues in the same area, and no one snarking at the other dogs.  

This is just the tip of the iceberg of my see-sawing ideas on food at the moment, folks. I'd love to have a lovely, deep discussion about the merits and possible disadvantages of food both in training and in everyday living with dogs. Let's discuss some wild possibilities just for the sake of it. I haven't made my mind up about food yet, and I need lots of input.

I don't think that people should feel that they have to use food, but IME, they should not discount using it based on false theories.  To find out what your own dog likes best, ask.  Put the dog in situations where they get to choose.  Example, even with food, some dogs like certain things better.  We have "cheese dogs" in class sometimes, who will go gaga for mozarella and turn their noses up at chicken.  Some dogs like salmon brownies better than beef.  Some dogs like frisbees better than any of those.   If you were in my week one lecture, one of the first things you would be asked to do is to go home and figure out your dog's five favorite things - food or otherwise. 

BTW, I almost put this post in the training section. I'm still not really sure whether it belongs here, but I guess I'm talking not just about food in training, but in general life as well.

Food is necessary for life, which makes it a powerful motivator for all of us.  But, there's no disagreeing that some of us use it inappropriately, whether for ourselves or our dogs.  And, some of us are "anorexic" about it when it comes to training.  Moderation in all things, I guess.

 

DPU

But the question should be how did the dog get to that state and what were the initial signs that were left unnoticed until the behavior becomes extreme. 

Still no answer to this simple question.  I think in this thread I read a poster say something....for animals, food is power....That statement tells everyone in the world that you should use food as the motivator in training.  Is it irresponsible for a trainer not to assess the degree of intensiity of the driver and whether because of the that intensity, learning will be inhibitated.  In training, should the motivator thats selected be something that can be safely escalated in interest.  If the trainer does know about these safety measures, shouldn't the trainer issue a qualfied statement of the trainer's ability and knowledge.   I know there is no oath like in the medical profession of "first do no harm", but come one that should not be a license to do harm.

Just a reminder, I think I cured a dog of true Separation Anxiety. 

DPU

DPU

But the question should be how did the dog get to that state and what were the initial signs that were left unnoticed until the behavior becomes extreme. 

Still no answer to this simple question.  I think in this thread I read a poster say something....for animals, food is power....That statement tells everyone in the world that you should use food as the motivator in training.

 

It does?  To me, that is simply a statement of fact based on the experience I have had.  I was into horses before dogs.  I think it might be possible that horses in general are more food motivated than dogs.  Throw a few piles of hay into a dry lot and you will get an almost instant picture of the power dynamic in that paddock.  When we had tried everything and everything else to get my mare into the trailer, our vet advised us to not feed her the night before or the morning of the trailer loading, and then put her grain in the trailer.  The same horse that refused to give an inch for hours and hours a couple of days before hopped in with little fuss. 

I know some people who will use food to teach tricks on the ground and I use it to lure my gelding into doing stretches--I've also seen people feed a horse in the horse trailer so it will become accustomed to it.  However, most of horse training does not involve food rewards.   Why?  Well, it tends to not be the most effective way to communicate what you want to the horse most times.  Things like pressure and release of pressure, allowing the horse to do things he enjoys in exchange for good behavior, etc, have been found to work better.

With dogs, in many cases, food rewards have been found to be the best way to teach many behaviors.  You don't have to agree with it, use it, or like it, but that does not make food a bad or harmful idea as a motivator.  I've heard many, many professional trainers advocate using whatever works for your dog as a motivator.  However, each dog is an individual, and at some point the common sense of the owner has to come into play.  I use food at first with Jack to plant the idea in his mind, but as the behavior advances, I don't use food--I don't want it to become a distraction.  Often, he'll work for just about anything once he knows what you want.  Today I had him doing obedience--the reward?  A Nylabone that had been laying on the floor for weeks, but when I picked it up and asked him to do things, it become something very cool.  Other times he'll work for my praise, other times for a toy.

If the owner is happy and the dog is happy and there is no physical harm being caused to the dog (like feeding an obese beagle fries for a motivator), then I don't see what the big deal is.    

DPU

DPU

But the question should be how did the dog get to that state and what were the initial signs that were left unnoticed until the behavior becomes extreme. 

Still no answer to this simple question.  I think in this thread I read a poster say something....for animals, food is power....That statement tells everyone in the world that you should use food as the motivator in training.  Is it irresponsible for a trainer not to assess the degree of intensiity of the driver and whether because of the that intensity, learning will be inhibitated. 

 

I've been at home for the last 24 hours, spending time with my food obssessed dog .

Penny has always been a bit silly about food, and I was okay with that. It wasn't hard to manage, we didn't get fights, and she was silly, but not mental about it. It was hard to get her to concentrate if she knew she was getting food, so I just didn't try and used praise instead. This obssession has got out of hand more recently, and I really think it's related to living with two other dogs. She loves canine company, but when she was living with my housemate's dog, they'd happily eat bones side by side and never a sideways glance. The only time we had troubles was when my housemate was feeding her dog and Penny got out of the house and she'd just chow down on his. He was okay with that. Most of the time, though the dogs were fed at different times and Penny was in my room with me when Raz was fed and didn't even know about it.

What's happening now is that Pyry has decided raw mix is the best food in the world, Penny already knew it was the best food in the world, and even Jill, who isn't really into food, doesn't want to share her dinner. I'm beginning to think Penny's obssession has intensified because there's nothing stopping the other dogs from getting at her food, at least in her head, and Pyry will attack either of the girls if he suddenly decides he wants their meal. Pyry eats alone where he can't see the girls, now. But I don't think that's the whole of the problem. I think it's partly that Penny feels vulnerable about her food, partly that she's always been intense about food, and partly that her dinner is now about the highest value food in her life. And she also seems to have developed a habit for checking all the bowls that is bordering on pathological, which I guess is related to how awesome she thinks her raw mix is and I suspect that just the act of licking a bowl is very rewarding, even if there's nothing left in there but the smell of food. Now remember, I haven't been living with these dogs for the last 12 months. I visit every couple of weeks for a day or 2, but that's all, so I don't really know what's going on and how it got so out of control.

My mother suggested that maybe Penny's not quite all there and is showing her age mentally, but I disagree because the moment Penny is on her own, her food obsession drops back to what it was like before 2 extra dogs and high value meals and it's quite manageable. She'll even turn her nose up at some foods that she doesn't actually like that much. We had no idea she didn't like beef hide rolls until we had her on her own and she refused to eat one. So I think this is related to being with other dogs, and I suspect she's afraid one of the other dogs is going to decide they want her food and there'll be nothing she can do about it. It's not like any of the dogs are allowed to get away with that, but Pyry will try it once in a while with not much warning and it scares the bejesus out of poor little Penny. He doesn't eat with the girls at all anymore and can't randomly go for them, but I wonder if that's what has started it all and that might be some of what's behind her increasing obsession.

Anyway, when I take her out of that situation in 6 weeks or so, she'll have a month or more just on her own to settle down and realise there is no competition, and I'm thinking when the puppy comes, I'll just start from scratch feeding them in seperate crates or even rooms and making sure all the bowls are off the ground between meals. As much as I don't want Penny to feel vulnerable about her food, I really, really don't want her to pass it on to the puppy by wanting to bully him off his meals or something. When it comes to training, I was planning to use a clicker with the pup. I'm wondering if I should introduce the clicker to Penny on her own before the puppy comes using low key rewards and then building up to food so that when I start with the puppy, hopefully I can use food with him in Penny's presence without having her glued to my leg, sitting furiously.

Anne, I think the fridge idea is a good one. I might try that with Penny, if I can overcome my own anxiety about the food issue!

DPU, I'd like to hear more about Marvin. I think I missed a lot of it. Would you mind PMing me?
 

Some things, in general.

Wolves and dogs are different. Wolves primarily hunt. Considered apex predators, i.e., top of the food chain, except for man. We can kill more animals in less time than any other animal. Dogs are scavengers, as well as hunters, but dogs are more suited to hunting small game, such as rodents, etc. But dogs scavenge, not unlike the coyote. And we cannot ignore the eons of domestication with man, which does have to do with food. Of all the animals, man has the most left-over food that is discarded. So, hanging around us and putting up with our simian ways has advantages, mainly resources that ensure survival. And, there's a good possibility that the prototypical dog (not all that different than the NGSD) had a non-radial mutation that produced a closer affinity to man and that mutation got rewarded by the surplus of food. And the mutation caused a biddability or even desire to work alongside man as part of the social club process, to have better access to resources.

It has been pointed out that with proper training, one doesn't have to use food all the time. But it wouldn't scare me if it did. I would still prefer it to combat.

OTOH, if the treat training is not working as you expected, it certainly couldn't hurt to step back and re-examine what it is you are doing with it. What your training desire is, what your application of the method is. For some working dogs, training is not so much treat rewards as it is working with other dogs as models and, by trial and error, the job is learned. Specifically, I am talking about sled dogs and traditional training. A new dog is placed in an established team and learns the ropes, if you'll pardon the pun, on the fly.

I know for some herding dogs, it's about pressure on the dog's space to guide their movements. I know you mentioned pressure before.

corvus

DPU

DPU

But the question should be how did the dog get to that state and what were the initial signs that were left unnoticed until the behavior becomes extreme. 

Still no answer to this simple question.  I think in this thread I read a poster say something....for animals, food is power....That statement tells everyone in the world that you should use food as the motivator in training.  Is it irresponsible for a trainer not to assess the degree of intensiity of the driver and whether because of the that intensity, learning will be inhibitated. 

 Penny has always been a bit silly about food, ....This obssession has got out of hand more recently, and I really think it's related to living with two other dogs. 

I am not buying the starting point that Penny came that way, that is food obsesses.  I also think it is nice to know the triggers for the obsession but it still does not answer how that trigger developed and escalated.  I think once an understanding of how the dog gets that way is reached, one would see that the potential occurance can exist in any dog.  And, it is most obvious when the dog start ageing and the behavior becomes more severe, such as in my Drizzle's case with auto sitting everytime she sees food.  In my house, I don't have food related behavior issues.  I don't have a telepathic dog that intimadates the other pack member so much that they can't eat in peace.  I have put it in its rightful place and order.

Reading this thread as I am mentally preparing to take Bugs to his first formal class (a couple of weeks to go) and I have been thinking about what 'rewards' to bring.  He is a pretty independent thinker and has a definite hierarchy although only he knows what that hierarchy is at that moment 

He responds to praise, food, toys, touch but none will surpass his chosen priority unless they are it.  He learns instantly but to this day it is always a choice to do the desired behavior and get some reward or do what he wants and skip the reward.  Best case scenario is to quickly do what human wants, get reward and go do what or continue to do  he wants to do.  LOL he has perfected not even breaking his focus and doing a behavior - attitude I'm busy here no time for this nonsense.

If you train him with food rewards he has sometimes only done that behavior if you give him a treat.  For example, I have clicker trained him to drop the frisbee, so if I have the clicker he drops the frisbee sits and waits for the c/t.  If you c/t and then just click the next time he won't drop it.  If you don't have the clicker he won't drop it (unless he feels like it).  I have removed the clicker and treated and he drops.  Stop treating, stops dropping.  Praise isn't going to get you there.

So for our class ( Distraction Proofing fittingly) do I bring a low or high food item, a tug, a toy, the clicker, who knows ...... low food not interesting enough chooses preferred behavior, high food item may go batty and have no focus or you could shoot yourself in the foot because even that doesn't work.  A tug he will want to play with another dog not me and a toy probably not high enough to get him or if you do it won't last.  That's my quandary.

They want us to bring rewards and honestly I haven't any idea which way to go.   BTW he is a well -behaved dog with a large range of tricks, commands etc.   The distraction proofing is an attempt at breaking into the focus and keeping him and also just something to do.

Well, my advise would not be good for you because you will need a lot of time to unconfuse Bugsy.  Think about it and how you want to proceed with training.  Using food.  Lets see, sometimes Bugsy gets food because of a certain time of the day and at that time, he gets great quantities of it.  Other times, he gets food/treat at your discretion and not have to do anything.  Other times, he does basic obedience and gets a treat.  But still other times, when you command obedience, he gets nothing.  Same thing with toys, when you want the food or object to have multiple meanings and you are the only one that knows the meaning at the time, its very confusing to the dog.  Is it used for nourishment, enjoyment, or obedience. 

Why confuse the dog just so the training can be fast for the human.  Keep food and snacks in their rightful place.  Make the toys be only for play.  If you want the dog to do something for YOU, then YOU should be the reward.  Thats using affection as the reward.  It takes time to cross over from the old school of food training, but the end result is the dog strengthens his trust in you. 

Corvus, I just kinda skimmed through much of this thread, and I hope to have time to read it in more detail later, but it does sound to me like Penny is just being a typical corgi. Corgis are known to be highly food oriented. They do compete with other dogs over resources even to the extent that guarding resources is common in the breed. They especially compete with dogs that are of other breeds. Many corgi owners (myself included) do feed them in crates. With them being prone to resource guarding it simply is easier and safer, as well as minimizing stress while eating.

The question about using treats and their value ~ I use treats as a low-medium value reward. When I feed treats, it's done with quiet praise ~ a quick "good" and a quick treat. When I jackpot, the praise becomes much more enthusiastic, there's petting, playing, as well as more than just the one little treat. The entire image changes from simply "good" to "great!", "awesome!", "super duper!"

Penny's lack of abiltiy to focus on learning in the presence of food strikes me as a matter of very high drive. She becomes overloaded in her food drive. I see it often with dogs that have a high ball drive or prey drive. They get so over the top with drive that they are unable to learn. As loading increases, the ability to learn decreases.

LOL David even I'm not this helter skelter   It makes sense what you say though and I will see how I can alter what I am doing and see if it works.

Yes he gets food for breakfast and dinner.  He NEVER gets food for nothing.  EVER.

yes he gets food treats (sometimes only, other times he gets praise and/or touch) for basic obedience 

and yes I try to gravitate from food rewarding 'command obedience' also.

Toys, other than fetching objects or his rubber bones are very limited as he destroys them and that is what he does with them, always.   They aren't a reward unless he can kill them.

My problem is that I HAVE to bring rewards to this class so I must decide what they will be.

My bond with Bugsy is fantastic however really and truly his 'drive' is such that I will not be more interesting than stalking and wanting to chase a group of deer.  At that moment (period of time) nothing is of interest to him at all other than the deer.  It is why we are doing the class.  In Bugsy's ideal world he goes after the deer for however long he likes and then he comes back to me.

Maybe for Bugsy you should take something from the natural world. For example, an old bird's nest, or a bit of rabbit skin or something. I keep telling my mother that for Pyry she should grab some of the mountains of shed rabbit fur we have on hand from Kit and Bonnie and tie it up in a rag or something. He could sniff something that smelt like rabbit all day, just about.

DPU, I"m not sure what to tell you. I don't remember Penny not being stupid about food. We're talking 12 years ago when I was a kid at school, here. And it's been no big deal until now when it's suddenly got a bit over the top. I've told you what I know and what I suspect of the change in her behaviour.

Corgipower, whether it's a corgi trait or not is not what concerns me. What concerns me is that her drive for food was very high but something we could all live with that didn't create problems, but now it's something else and does create problems. I don't think obsessive behaviour is good in any case. That and I haven't been sure where to go with food and how I should use it in rewards both with Penny and with a new puppy in Penny's presence. I honestly think that this new obsessiveness in Penny will fade away when I take her out of the current situation. As I've said, over Christmas we had her on her own for a few days and her food obsession slackened considerably back to the Penny I know - who likes food but doesn't need to eat everything that comes her way in record speed. 

corvus

DPU, I"m not sure what to tell you. I don't remember Penny not being stupid about food. We're talking 12 years ago when I was a kid at school, here. And it's been no big deal until now when it's suddenly got a bit over the top. I've told you what I know and what I suspect of the change in her behaviour.

Wasn't really expecting an answer from you because if you had the awareness early on, you would have seen the signs and then taken appropiate avoidance action.  I also expect that trainers who advocate food base training don't have the knowledge either but yet I see things like throw roast beef at the dog to make the dog perform, make the driver even stronger so the dog learns fasters.  But at what costs to the dog.

corvus

Corgipower, whether it's a corgi trait or not is not what concerns me.

The point being that it is a very typical issue with the breed. What you call obsessive is drive and competing for resources, also very typical for the breed. For using food rewards with Penny ~ I would use a medium value treat, and work with her after she's had a meal. Feeding her before training will help take the edge off the drive. Use a treat that she likes but isn't over the top for, and the only way she gets that treat is in training. Make sure you use it as a reward and not as a lure or a bribe. Carry a few in your pockets all the time and surprise her when she's being good. By always having them on you but not always giving them to her, she'll become desensitized to the presence of them and realize that she only gets them when she earns them. With the puppy, if Penny is competing for the puppy's treats, I would initially put Penny somewhere else - in another room or outside - while working with the puppy. After the two of them learn individually, then they can begin learning together.

All hail Satan ... and pass the roast beef. So many dogs, so little time ...

 

corvus

I don't remember Penny not being stupid about food. We're talking 12 years ago when I was a kid at school, here. And it's been no big deal until now when it's suddenly got a bit over the top. I've told you what I know and what I suspect of the change in her behaviour.

Besides what may be the obvious answer, part of that answer will likely lie in the fact that chances are all of the humans in the household are not 100% consistent with each other, and in what the belief is in "how to deal with Penny". Is this an accurate guess, or semi-accurate? Does this make working on her issue more complicated?

Some people have a hard time realizing that some pathologies just happen, despite upbringing, or despite what rewards you use (although they can exacerbate it, they often don't "cause" it.....human-caused obsessions are a) much more easily fixed, and b) not as common as some would have you believe).

 Genetics, neonatal experiences, and the summation of life experiences all play a role. No, the dog may not be born with a "food obsession" gene, but they certainly can be born with predispositions to develop abnormal reactions to different stimuli, to the point where they become obsessive. And it certainly isn't relegated to just food. I know dogs that have developed obsessions about flies, bugs, balls, frisbees, other dogs, dust bunnies, you name it. The stimulus itself is not what's really important, it's the fact that a certain stimulus happened to fit what was likely a predisposition and personality characteristic to develop such behaviours. Sometimes you can prevent it, certainly, and sometimes you cannot prevent it totally. That's just a part of life with dogs. And while all of us can develop our own theories about what you "should have" done, at this point, with your dog, it doesn't matter anymore. And it's important that you realize that with two other dogs, who do not have food obsessions, chances are you raised them in similar ways (not likely identical), so you likely realize that you shouldn't worry too much about having somehow personally "caused" this issue to occur, as though you were blind or ignorant about something. You have two other dogs, in your home, that do not show food obsessions. So right now you are already on the "doing something right" side. Keep that in mind when thinking these issues over, so that you don't begin to feel too discouraged and begin to convince yourself (or have those little angel/devils on your shoulder) that you've somehow gone wrong with your dogs because you have *one* dog that happens to have an issue.

I think anybody who experiences true OCD in their lives (human or animal), or knows somebody who does, realize that in most pathological cases they cannot be *prevented* totally, even if you know and see the signs. And I would love to see the person who blames human parents for OCD occurring in one of their children. Wow, that would be a sight to imagine. They can be managed, the animal/human can be taught coping strategies, and sometimes it can be treated (every case is different).

Living with a dog (Gaci) that has the anxious personality that tends towards OCD-like behaviours her I have some first-hand experience, even though it's not food-related. Now, Gaci's behaviours have two factors: one of her issues is stress-induced, the other is a result of a physiological vulva issue, which is ongoing. Through coping strategies, massage, and other work we have combatted the stress-related behaviours very successfully, and have had no issues in a long long time, not since her last vulva surgery which was highly stressful for her, both emotionally and physically.  But at the same time I know that her obsessive-compulsiveness stems from different origins than your girl's, and what worked for my girl is not necessarily the right strategy for your girl, since your girl's are very strictly related to food.

Corvus, I should ask, at this point in her life are you interesting in working with her issue with food in general, or are you more hypothetically just investigating the overall use of food in teaching?