Why This Surliness Towards Clickers (and other great questions)

spiritdogs

dogs don't have the capacity to use and understand language

I would argue that they certainly do, just not VERBAL language.  Do you think that body language is just some sort of primal dance that serves no current function?  Just because we don't always understand, doesn't mean another being isn't trying to tell us something.

 

Yes it does, actually. Body language is a bit of a misnomer because it's a catch phrase, coined in the 1960s, to describe the ways people unconsciously communicate things about themselves. There are experts who teach people how to be aware of what their body language is communicating when they give a public speech, eg. To think dogs use their body language with conscious intent is quite a stretch. 

The following is from a review I wrote of Brenda Aloff's book on Body Language (which I gave 4 stars, with this caveat): 

"Eugene Morton, of the National Zoo, has done an extensive study of the sounds made by numerous species of animals. He says that to really understand these sounds (that some people think of as a kind of language), it's best not to try to understand what they MEAN, but what they ACCOMPLISH. If we translate that to canine body language we can see that it's not about what the postures and facial expressions MEAN to the other dog (or human), it's about what they get the other dog (or human) to DO: to back off, to come closer, to play a game, to not play so rough, etc. But the single underlying thing that dogs want to accomplish through interactions with us and with other dogs is to attain a more harmonious and satisfying feeling for themselves, not to try to communicate anything to anyone. Maybe I'm wrong, but I think if we're to truly understand our canine companions it's important for us to make this distinction."

There was another thread here about whether dogs have a theory of mind, and they would definitely have to have one in order to form an intent to communicate, whether it's through body language, yips and barks, or whatever. These are behaviors, which are used to get the other person or dog to DO something; they're not used with the intent to communicate.

spiritdogs

Also, re Ron's experience with the retrieve, could you elaborate on just how you would have elicited that behavior?  When you use phrases like "tease it to the surface", I don't think that tells anyone who might be interested in trying your theories out exactly how they would do that.

 

Maybe later. I don't have time to go into it right now,

Basically it all depends on the dog and the situation. You find some some object or a game the dog is interested in, tease him to increase his interest in it, then take it from there. I wrote a blog article that might help explain it, if you're really interested: http://www.tiny.cc/jumpstart

LCK 

 Regarding the "unscientific" nature of an energy theory of behavior, I realize this isn't in the same ballpark, but I I just came across this abstract while looking something up for someone else: http://www.quantumconsciousness.org/photosynthesis.htm

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

In photosynthesis, light is collected and transported along a structural complex of chlorophyll and protein scaffolding.

The paper described below demonstrated that energy is transported along the complex via superpositioned electron states and quantum coherent excitons (to the amazement of the epxerimenters). If plants utilize quantum coherence (avoidning decoherence), it seems likely that animal cells are able to utilize similar processes for information processing.

Nature 446, 782-786 (12 April 2007)
Evidence for wavelike energy transfer through quantum coherence in photosynthetic systems

Gregory S. Engel1,2, Tessa R. Calhoun1,2, Elizabeth L. Read1,2, Tae-Kyu Ahn1,2, Tomás caron Manc caronal1,2,5, Yuan-Chung Cheng1,2, Robert E. Blankenship3,4 & Graham R. Fleming1,2

   1. Department of Chemistry & QB3 Institute, University of California, Berkeley
   2. Physical Biosciences Division, Lawrence Berkeley National Laboratory, Berkeley, California 94720, USA
   3. Department of Biology,
   4. Department of Chemistry, Washington University, St Louis, Missouri 63130, USA
   5. Present address: Institute of Physics of Charles University, 12116 Prague 2, Czech Republic.

Correspondence to: Graham R. Fleming1,2 Correspondence and requests for materials should be addressed to G.R.F. (Email: grfleming@lbl.gov).

 

(From Abstract)

In the present experiment, we use two-dimensional electronic spectroscopy to observe oscillations caused by electronic coherence evolving during the population time in FMO [bacteriochlorophyll complex]. Such quantum coherence, a coherent superposition of electronic states analogous to a nuclear wavepacket in the vibrational regime, is formed when the system is initially excited by a short light pulse with a spectrum that spans multiple exciton transitions. Theoretical predictions indicate that both the amplitudes and shapes of peaks will contain beating signals with frequencies corresponding to the differences in energy between component exciton states17.

To observe the quantum beats, two-dimensional spectra were taken at 33 population times T, ranging from 0 to 660 fs. Representative spectra are shown in Fig. 1 and a video of the spectral evolution is included in the Supplementary Information. In these spectra, the lowest-energy exciton gives rise to a diagonal peak near 825 nm that clearly oscillates: its amplitude grows, fades, and subsequently grows again. The peak's shape evolves with these oscillations, becoming more elongated when weaker and rounder when the signal amplitude intensifies. The associated cross-peak amplitude also appears to oscillate. Surprisingly, the quantum beating lasts for 660 fs. This observation contrasts with the general assumption that the coherences responsible for such oscillations are destroyed very rapidly, and that population relaxation proceeds with complete destruction of coherence2 (so that the transfer of electronic coherence between excitons during relaxation is usually ignored2, 18, 19).

(from Discussion)

The FMO light-harvesting complex provides an opportunity to apply more complete energy transfer theories that invoke non-markovian dynamics and include coherence transfer. Such theories need to include wavelike energy motion owing to long-lived coherence terms, alongside the population transfer included in current models. Further, the observed preservation of coherence in this photosynthetic system requires us to redefine our description of the role of electron–phonon interactions within photosynthetic proteins. In particular, the protein may not only enforce the structure that gives rise to the couplings, but also modulate those couplings with motions of charged residues and changing local dielectric environments, which will change exciton energies and promote coherence transfer...

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

LCK 

I would submit that a dog that tries to get another dog to do something IS communicating, and I also believe that dogs do intend to communicate their intent or "requests" to others.  Maybe in 2020 or so, someone will prove my hypothesis by some other neuroscientific research.  Till then, I'm waiting with baited breath for the answer to my question which you were too busy to attend to yet.  You are quite the intellectual, and I respect that, but I also know that the answer to one question is not always what it seems in the overall picture.  Researchers also found that hormone replacement therapy was good for women in a lot of ways - then they also discovered that it heightened the risk for breast cancer.  Take everything you read with a modicum of skepticism is my motto.  Not that I discount experimental science, because I don't.  But, too often, we use it to advance our own positions, not to really find out the answer to the questions we pose.  For now, behaviorism aside, I know that clicker training has produced, for me at least, several really well trained well behaved dogs who seem to take joy in what they do.  Enough for me till something better comes along, hence my inquiry of you to post further.

Lee Charles Kelley

 Of any species on the planet dogs are the least likely to be "in it for themselves." 

And yet, ironically perhaps, my wild hare  - a solitary animal - is the only animal I've lived with that has volunteered a behaviour that wasn't purely selfish and benefitted me more than it did him. But then, maybe he's not as solitary as the experts think. Even a wild, solitary, prey animal is happiest when those around him are happy.

I'm yet to see my dog do something that isn't purely for her own benefit, unless you count humoring me. And I guess that's why I'm planning to raise my next puppy more or less the same way I raised my hare, although I have a sneaking suspicion he's so special because he's wild and his brain works quite differently.

As for scavenging, when I switched Penny to homecooked, her interest in food soared. She adores that stuff! She'd eat it until she couldn't fit anymore in. Jill, on the other hand, only ever eats as much as she absolutely has to have. She's lean and it's actually quite hard to keep her from getting skinny. Penny will eat her meal, and then get stuck into Jill's if Jill will let her. She's been known to eat her portion, then the majority of Jill's, which was the equivalent of about 3 times what she needs. She'd eat Pyry's too if hell froze over and he didn't want it. She puts on weight if left to her own devices with good food.  

Lee Charles Kelley

The only way you could teach him fetch, as you put it, was not based on reading and using his energy. That's why you had problems with it. If you had been reading his energy you would have been able to teach him to fetch in less than five minutes.

If you don't mind, let me teach you a few things about dogs. Different breeds have different traits or characteristics they are known for, as well as physiological differences. For over 1,000 years, the chukchi dog was not trained or bred to retrieve. They were bred to pull hard and run fast in the worst conditions on the planet on very little food. With an independent streak to them, partially from not being bred for obedience or retrieval and partly because a smart lead dog can be a lifesaver on the trail. So, my dog, who is primarily Siberian Husky (the modern name of the chuckchi dog), has the natural energy or inclination to grab the object as if it were prey and then run flat out. Much of his play involves running around at mach 1. The camraderie of human company and the joy of fetching and returning for another fun bout of fetching wasn't enough or even existed as a possibility for him. It's not what he was bred to do.

I realize that you have a problem with clickers and treats, though I haven't seen where you can actually prove what is wrong with it or positive motivation. IMO, slamming Karen Pryor and slandering her knowledge based on a quote you didn't like and supposing an emotion on dogs not evident in most cases or misread in most cases, does not count as proof that the use of a marker is wrong. Most people here use markers. They think it's affection when they say good boy but that is also a marker for the successfully completed behavior.

As for dogs being in it for themselves, of course they are. We all are. No, I'm not reducing everything to a Skinner box, though the simplification can clear up a lot of misconception. Even engaging in this debate is bring you some reward. Whether that reward is the hope of being right, converting another to your ideas, or simply exchanging ideas, it is rewarding. Hence, the behavior is repeated. If no one responded to you at all, you wouldn't post, most likely. I liken that to talking to an empty room, as it were. Not much use in talking to an empty room.

As for the use of quantum mechanics, it is still just a theory with problems and limits. And, by the way, Quantum Mechanics disproved, with at least one basic concept of QM, Einstein's Special Theory of Relativity. And the concept is called the Law of Conservation of Mass and Energy and the proof against SR by Einstein is the EPR Event. Named for Einstein, Podolsky, and Rosen. So, which theory are you going to believe?

Another question. How could marking and positively rewarding for a good fetch not be teasing? I am disregarding your distaste for markers. I suppose even "good boy" is out since that is also a marker. And I have to admit, that while I understand some things about energy, possibly more than you might realize that I do, I don't think it's a matter of animal ESP. If that were the case, we wouldn't have these training discussions. No reward or punishment would work or be necessary. We would simply wish for the behavior and get it. And there is my limitation. I value science and math over "not science and math".

And I don't mean to "pick on you." But you have made some statements that I think contradict everything any one does here, whether it is reward or punishment. Those things work because they are involved in associative learning.

Just as a side interest, if you can handle our odd search function here, you might look up how we discussed the non-linear dog theory before. My personal problem with it is that it is one-dimensional in a certain aspect, even while it accuses other training systems of being one-dimensional. While, as a math nut, I appreciate the topological approach of the theory, I think dogs are more complex than just an energy curve. Dogs do generalize. For example, a dog has one bad experience with a male human and is scared of male humans in general, after that. My dog came up with ways to cue me for when he wanted more training. He also has a specific way of letting me know when he needs to go outside. It is rudimentary interspecies communication. And no, it's not a simple scratching on the door. It involves 4 specific behaviors in a chain in an exact order. And he came up with it, not me. I happened to notice it and successfully let him out the door and that chain became his communication to me. I think that's a little more than just a lump of energy. At the risk of anthropromorphizing, at exactly which point does an animal quit being a lump of energy and become sentient? I don't see where you have defined that.

Basically it all depends on the dog and the situation. You find some some object or a game the dog is interested in, tease him to increase his interest in it, then take it from there.

We trainers have all done that at one time or another, but why do you think a game or object that the dog is interested in is any different from any other reinforcer he's interested in?  Try teasing a Bulldog that doesn't care a whit about a toy or a game - what is your tactic then?  I think that you are like many other trainers and handlers - you've found a guru, too, and are now part of his fold.  But, that doesn't mean that he has all the answers either, and I suspect that we will find that dogs are more complex than either Skinner or Kevin Behar believe.

ron2

If you don't mind, let me teach you a few things about dogs.

 

ron2

And I don't mean to "pick on you." But you have made some statements that I think contradict everything any one does here, whether it is reward or punishment.

 

So what? Better people talk about contradicting ideas than sit around patting each other on the back for being right. You do seem to be picking on the man for voicing his opinion. You don't have to agree. I'm enjoying reading the discourse. You don't have to get ... surly.

If someone makes statements on a public board I see nothing wrong with people questioning/disagreeing with them, even repeatedly.  That IS what creates discourse.... 

sillysally

If someone makes statements on a public board I see nothing wrong with people questioning/disagreeing with them, even repeatedly.  That IS what creates discourse.... 

Agreed. We all have opinions and opinions are like armpits .... which is why I use deoderant and cologne.

 

 

FourIsCompany

You do seem to be picking on the man for voicing his opinion.

"Pickin on" in the sense that I have been responding to his posts recently, and usually in disagreement. But only in the interest of talking about contradicting ideas. That is, I want to avoid the appearance of picking on someone.

FourIsCompany

You don't have to agree

 

True. I was simply not wanting to appear that I was singling him out but he does make comments that seem to invite discourse.

FourIsCompany

You don't have to get ... surly

I wasn't trying to. I know only you are allowed to be surly.

 

AgileGSD

 I taught clicker based training classes for years and actually had great success with the majority of average Joes I had. For some people though, it was just too much so they didn't use the clicker. I tried to present it in an easy to use way and all i asked what that the owners try it, some didn't stick with it and that is ok too. I do admit though that I had next to no success with teaching elderly owners to use clicker training.

This is very interesting to me and on target with the topic of this thread.  Elderly owners?  Surliness happens when the teachers sets up a wall where they don't allow themselves to be taught by the students.   When that happens and IMO, the training method does not advance or is improved.

DPU

This is very interesting to me and on target with the topic of this thread.  Elderly owners?  Surliness happens when the teachers sets up a wall where they don't allow themselves to be taught by the students.   When that happens and IMO, the training method does not advance or is improved.

 Not sure exactly what you are getting at but they tended to do much better with lure and reward training.

ron2

So, my dog, who is primarily Siberian Husky (the modern name of the chuckchi dog), has the natural energy or inclination to grab the object as if it were prey and then run flat out. Much of his play involves running around at mach 1. The camraderie of human company and the joy of fetching and returning for another fun bout of fetching wasn't enough or even existed as a possibility for him. It's not what he was bred to do.

 

Yes, but didn't you say he was 50/50 Lab/Husky?

I thought Labs love to play fetch and retrieve......or am I wrong .....?

snownose

Yes, but didn't you say he was 50/50 Lab/Husky?

I thought Labs love to play fetch and retrieve......or am I wrong .....?

I haven't thought of or represented Shadow as a 50/50 mix. I've lost track of the number of times I have mentioned that he is Siberian in temperment, metabolism, and some physiology. For example, the less dense bones. The tail, the ears, the eyes, the four colors in the coats, as in two coats. And the spring blow we are expecting to endure, again. The fact that, early on, I couldn't make sense of him until I started reading Sibe sites. The metabolism. I'm used to Labs cleaning their bowl and gorging. So much so that, as a general rule, you don't free feed Labs. Shadow will leave half a bowl sitting there for most of the day. Then there is the phenomenal speed. And the double suspension gait. When Labs run, the tend to bound to get over tall grass, etc. Huskies run flat. By that, I mean they don't bound, as bounding throws off the double suspension gait. It's not officially timed but I have estimated his top speed at about 35 mph.

It is my theory that Labrador Retrievers have an easier time learning to fetch and retrieve from the specific breeding of being a Retriever. Good retrievers got to mate and culls didn't. With Sibes, those that could run fast and pull hard and were easy with humans and yet smart and able to read the trail faster than the human got to breed. Etc., etc. Also, a good lead dog is not necessarily the "dominant" or "alpha" of the pack. The lead dog responds to the human but also will stop or divert the team if there's trouble ahead. So a good musher learns to read his lead dog like an open book.

Also, it's not totally unheard of for a mix or mutt to favor the aspects of one breed over another. In fact, thanks to nDNA, it rarely works out to a 50/50 mix. I've seen a wolfdog that looked like a dog. And my dog has been mistaken for a wolf and a wolf hybrid. Which is why it is sometimes foolhardy to cross breeds because you don't know what you are getting until a few years later. And looks can change. I actually met Shadow once, a few months after he was purchased. He looked like a funny-looking Lab puppy with more energy than coordination.

But I have taught Shadow to play fetch the Retriever way because I made it rewarding in a way that made sense to him. But I still like to play fetch his way, too.

 

AgileGSD

DPU

This is very interesting to me and on target with the topic of this thread.  Elderly owners?  Surliness happens when the teachers sets up a wall where they don't allow themselves to be taught by the students.   When that happens and IMO, the training method does not advance or is improved.

 Not sure exactly what you are getting at but they tended to do much better with lure and reward training.

 

I hate generalizations, especially generalizations based solely on age.  Granted, an elder who has slower reaction time, or arthritic hands, may do better with lure/reward, but not all elders are frail or slow, and it is rude and inaccurate to paint them all with the same brush.  In this area, which is admittedly upscale, where people tend to be educated, eat better, and live an active lifestyle, our elders tend to be physically competent longer, and many do very well with clicker training.  I also resent the assertion that trainers (who did you mean, DPU?) pay no attention to what students can teach them.  As a matter of fact, a five year old once taught me the really simple method that I now use for teaching dogs to "shake" - and it works just about every time.  As to my relationship with elders either in my classes, please, if you want to find yet another reason to disagree with me just because it's me, find an area where I truly am lacking and have at it - this is not one of them.  It just happens that another trainer and I had dissimilar experiences with elders in the particular areas in which we teach, but that is not indicative of them as a group, or of any insensitivity on either trainer's part to their needs.