Why This Surliness Towards Clickers (and other great questions)

    • Gold Top Dog

    Why This Surliness Towards Clickers (and other great questions)

      On the Thread "Clickers for the Surly" many asked the very fine question "Why on earth would a clicker make someone surly? Or "What is this surly problem with clickers?" All fine questions and all worthy of comment. As a great example of why many are surly towards clickers or towards the word "positive"  you might take the time to read another fine thread entitled  Prong Collars- Discuss and there are numerous other examples of similar threads.

     

      I will attempt to address this question in an honest manor without naming any one person. If you would like to explain why you are surly towards clickers and perhaps the word positive please feel free to state you case. As difficult as it might be, please refrain from naming specific persons in your explanation.

     

      I am owned by two wonderful dogs and I enjoy dogs very much, they provide a peace and a friendship that I cannot really put into words. I cannot imagine living a life without a dog to share it. Over the course of my life I have endeavored to always have a close relationship with my dogs. I have completed in obedience trials years ago, and agility trials years ago and the main reason I stopped was because I reached a point where the intense training and the effort to get that perfect heel and that perfect sit, were taking the fun out of competing for me and for my dogs. In that day corrections and choke chains were the primary method of training a dog. 

     

      I read Khoeler and the Monks as that was what was available in those days, but across the years I dropped most all of the corrective type teaching and replaced it with praise and rewards. What I call a correction now would most likely make the likes of Khoeler and Leerburg fall on the ground laughing their asses off "what you call that a correction!!!” 

     

      Nowadays my favorite well known trainers are Suzanne Clothier, Jan Fennell, Patricia McConnell and Turid Rugaas. I would not stay a minute in a class that went straight into corrections as the means to teach a dog to heel or other commands.  I have learned a great deal from reading books and agree that positive (darn I almost hate that word now) training is the way to go! Of course you should make it positive and make it fun and both you and your dog should enjoy your relationship together in all that you do! 

     

     But alas, because I also support the use of prong collars (when needed and not for all dogs across the board), because I believe that every dog is different and some dogs need more correction than others (and I am not talking about yanking or hanging or beating or kicking them across the yard either) because nudging a dog with my foot or touching his butt to assist him in a sit is not considered the equivalent of "dog rape" in my mind I feel I am labeled as anti- positive and because most of this comes from positive only clicker preaching persons it makes me surly to discuss clickers and it makes me cringe when I hear the word "positive".

     As a matter of fact my dogs and I practice "purely happy" training as apposed to "purely positive" and I have taught both dogs to perform an instant "alpha roll" on command, the command used is the name of someone here on this forum! It gives us all joy to shout out the name of one of these intensive preachers and have both my boys do their "alpha roll" !

     Had I been a dog novice with no knowledge and perhaps a lesser desire to truly “know” these wonderful creatures that share my life, I would never look at a clicker ever, just based off of some of the holier than though condemnation people I have come across on this board.

     If I were someone who only knew Leerburg or Khoeler techniques and that was all that was in my tool box, I would never be changed to anything better by what I personally have seen here (again by those few people) and it is irritating to be judged by people who appear to be on a crusade to convert everyone to their philosophy and it is a convert or be damned philosophy. It is over harsh, rude and in pretty much 99.9% of the cases I have witnessed it is incorrect (yes the guy who was spanking his dog deserved the comments).

      So I really have to say that it is not the clickers, I have used marker words for years, and it is not the philosophy of positive it is the method and manner in which the message is delivered that makes me surly.

     

    • Gold Top Dog

     

    There’s something about my nature that when I’m judged as and called an abusive, violent, rude, unkind, ignorant control freak (among other things), and told that my dogs are shut down and are experiencing learned helplessness and are worthy of pity, simply because they live with me… I just kind of don’t like that. Odd, huh? And the people who have done this are some of the very same people who vocally advocate “positive training” and “clicker training”. Fortunately, not everyone who advocates positive training and clicker training has this attitude… But unfortunately, they do give the method a “bad name”.

     

    Never in my life, has anyone else said such things to me...

     

    For me, the “surly” thing is comic relief. Of course I’m not a bit upset about the clicker, but it has been difficult to separate the use of the nifty little gadget from the message delivered right along side it here. Fortunately, I had used clickers before I came here, so I already had a positive association with them. And now, I find I must drag myself out of the muck of surliness if I am to begin using it in earnest again. And to tell you the truth, I’m not sure I’m going to stay with it. It’s a lot harder than just letting the dog know what I want from him and rewarding him for doing it… and I frankly don’t see the benefit of clicking him there. Sometimes it seems like a silly fad, and I really hate fads. I mean, I understand it with dolphins, but dogs are so domesticated and can communicate so well with us, why complicate it?

     

    But anyway, my reasons for sometimes being Super Angry are the same as yours. My husband and I get quite a kick out of some of the discussions here. We laugh and make jokes… Because it’s just funny! And talking about it has been a great relief. Finding that others here are feeling what I’m feeling is very validating and shows me that it’s not just my imagination. It's ironic that the most haughty and assumptive negative judgments come from the lofty position of the so-called “positive trainer”.

    • Gold Top Dog

    Speaking personally...I just have to accept that anywhere you find an online community, it is going to be populated with passionate members.  No one who is apathetic takes the time.  Passion is a double edged sword, there is a fine line between enthusiasm and overzealousness.

    One point I would like to make - which is a point I have both made and seen made by others before - is that of COURSE every single person here is going to believe they're right about something, if not right about everything (LOL).  I can't imagine training my dog if in the back of my mind, every day, I was thinking to myself "what if I am doing this wrong?".  Confidence in myself inspires Ben's confidence in me.....doubts would beget that same thing.  Even if I AM wrong, I'd rather do those personal examinations of self privately, after reading something that inspires that here.

    Forget the Great Divide....or "we're more alike than we are different"....I think this forum would have less of a split down the middle if we could agree not on training philosophy, but on the idea that maybe we aren't all so much guilty of arrogance as of the very human trait of not wanting to appear wrong, and thus vulnerable. 

    • Gold Top Dog

    Mind if I join in? With a bit of honest of my own!

    In a lot of ways, I agree with you!

    I myself am surrrrrrrrly about the "positive" label. I think it is bad in a lot of ways. It gives the connotation of "negative" as the only other alternative, and because I think a lot in behaviouristic terms, it doesn't really cover the "positive" in P+ very well. I understand what people mean when they say "positive trainer", but much like I dislike the newfangled term 'balanced' trainer, I don't much like positive as a label either. That is, you'll likely learn that I'm not that fond of labels! Which is usually when I describe something, I try to describe my philosophy and what I do rather than what "type" of teaching I do.

    At the same time, I myself have noticed some of what you have noticed on the boards, about how clickers are portrayed. Now, anyone who knows me knows that I am indeed a diehard fan of the clicker. No hands down. That little piece of plastic (rather, the philosophy around it), has literally changed my dogs' lives, and my life. But the thing is, I know that it works. I see it with my own eyes every single day of my life, and I see the extreme success I have had with it, and how the philosophy behind it has helped to make my life better. ;-) Of course I think it is extremely effective, otherwise I wouldn't be using it! I don't need to forcefeed it down everyone's throats though, or continually say "Well, this way is better" or "That way is less effective".  All I need to do is discuss what I do, what the results were, and let it all stand on its own two feet, without pushing, and pushing, and pushing. The only line I draw of course, is when incorrect information is presented around the concept/philosophy of clicker teaching/operant conditioning, for the good of the board and potential listeners I do feel compelled to address that type of information lest somebody learn incorrect facts. But to get it out there, I too have run into the "holier than thou" attitude regarding clickers, and I don't much like it, as is evidenced it results in a regression for the goals of those posting, rather than a procession. You get a heck of a lot farther by building on the positive things and assisting others, then by constantly degrading and criticizing another's methods.

    Secondly, if I may add, I too was surly about the clicker when I first heard about it. I probably thought about it much in the same way all of you did. Even when I first began using it, it felt wrong, and awkward, and I was embarrassed to be using this.....thing....in public. But it only took the teaching of one behaviour, to get me hooked on it. The rest was history. But in general, I started out much like anyone else would (although I didn't start with the bad publicity), questioning it and giving it random odd glances *kidding*

    Thirdly, when I first got into the clicker big-time, I went out and joined a whole host of new clicker groups. And I'll tell you about them. They are filled with kind people, they are filled with very knowledgeable people, and I can always feel welcome to go there to discuss the science, or get help if I need it. However, those groups are also what drew me to look for groups such as this one. I started to get bored by the fact that everyone always agreed with what I had to say....lol. There was some helping others learn, but often discussions weren't awe-inspiring. I found I wasn't learning much new at that point, and being a natural learner, I was starting to literally crave something new. So there I found Idog, with a whole new group of people and a whole new set of discussions! Don't get me wrong, I love my clicker groups, and I read all the messages everyday and post when I have something to share. But even having everyone agree with you and observing the way some people (don't worry, not all people on those groups are like that!) talk about "the others" was disconcerting to me. Even when I agreed with their reasoning, sometimes you wonder where they lost the "positive" in dealing with people that they believed in with their dogs. I have learned a lot more about people from this group, and how to interact with people, than with any of my other groups because in those other groups there was always agreement, so I didn't have to worry about offending somebody.

    The earliest pictures I have of myself with dogs include me with dogs almost as tall as I, and I holding/handling them with a leash, with a....wait for it...choke chain on the other end. Granted, I don't know if I ever actually used it much, or when I did I was pretty young so not the same force as if I did it today, but I did know how to use it, and I know how to properly put it on, where it should sit on the neck, and how to give well-timed collar pops. So it's not like I came out of the womb with this clicker in my hand *G* I've been where a lot of folks are, and may have used what folks do, so who am I to judge somebody else, whether they choose to keep doing as they do forever or if perhaps they too are on the path to changing how they interact with their dogs? Any of us who use a clicker, have travelled on an evolving path to get where we are. Technically speaking, the clicker is one of the "newest" teaching technologies available, so most of us have come from somewhere, and that somewhere usually involved the use of some of the tools some people are condemning (Hey, I've got a Koehler book on my bookshelf, and it's sitting right beside my clicker books...so nyah). I think some people need to take a step back to that time, to remember what it felt like, and how it didn't feel "wrong" to them (although for some it did, but it's all they knew) at that time, and try to remember learning about what they know now.

     If you promise not to make fun of my little self, I can show you in pictures. *G*

    So, I guess that's the long way of saying while I openly discuss what tools I won't use, why I don't use certain tools, and my philosophies, I do my best to treat everybody with the same respect and not paint everyone with the same paintbrush. And I have a little bit of surliness of my own, and just to get it out there that I'm not blind to what some of you "surly" folks are seeing, honestly, and for you to try to realize, too, that not all clickerers are the same either. :-)

    • Gold Top Dog

    Or, if you decide to bypass all of that, I'll do it short and sweet. In terms of "learning theory":

    - Classical conditioning: Some people have developed a negative emotional response to the clicker. The clicker has become a CS for unwanted criticisms and harsh treatments. Where the clicker started as a neutral stimulus, after multiple pairings with disheartening discussions, it develops a negative meaning that is actually quite aversive when presented.

    - Operant conditioning: Some people have been punished for their beliefs and current teaching methodologies, while at the same time have been flooded with the clicker and its theories. Rather than being reinforced for steps in the "right" direction ("right" not meaning anyone is wrong but meaning to some clicker folks that non-clicker people learn about the clicker's value), some clicker folks are actually doing to people what they are advocating against doing in dogs.

    So perhaps a note to some clicker folks (and non-clicker folks): For everything you believe in with your dogs, strive to do the same with the two-legged version. Let's do less punishing of our fellow members and do more reinforcement (even with ignoring what you don't like, if something bothers you!), and help them, and offer alternative behaviours without the punishment on the side.

    (Note:The same can be said for people of any philosophy. There has also been the fair share of flaming and condescending criticisms of clicker people too, I know I have experienced it, which is equally unwarranted, so I don't think there is one "right" party and one "wrong" party....but let's stick to the clicker for this thread).

    • Gold Top Dog
    What makes me surly is the need of some to broaden the definition of abuse by narrowing the definition of humane.  The word "humane" or the statements that you be more "humane" are very emotional to me.  I don't like people insinuating that I am not caring and humane. In my eyes, humane dog training is that which gets the point of the training across to the dog without undue pain or confusion to the dog. It does not necessarily have anything to do with the equipment used. Why is the word 'humane' even needed?  Because some believe that anything aversive, is abuse – correct?

     

    Eliciting and rewarding desired behaviors is valuable in training dogs there is no argument.  The people I know here, all elicits and rewards desired behaviors. By definition, punishment is self eliminating. It is supposed to decrease the occurrence of a behavior. If the occurrence of the behavior is decreased, the use of punishment is also decreased. The real problem I see with the definition of 'humane" is never causing harm.  Harm is one of those words like 'humane' and 'ethical'. It is very emotionally charged. No one believes their methods 'cause harm.' It is a very subjective term. There are those here who would say that any use of punishment at all causes harm. That is virtually all methods, techniques, and tools other than the ones they personally use should be eliminated because they are 'unethical, inhumane, and cause harm to dogs.  Prong collars are inhumane because using them is, in effect, punishment? Electronic collars are inhumane, for the same reason? Are techniques such as long-lining, forced retrieve training, booby-trapping, bark collars, and so on and so on all inhumane because they require the use of aversive? What about techniques that make use of negative reinforcement, the escape-avoidance paradigm? 'Training enhances the lifelong relationship between us and our dogs.' Can you argue with that?     

     

    As Kim said, if I kept reading about all the wonderful things that people have done and how successful they are with the clicker and not be put down by my choices I would argue less and listen more!

     

    ETA:  How frustrating it is to lose my formatting.  I can't seem to get the post to allow my spacing or paragraphs.  So for the messed up, bunched up writing.Angry

    • Gold Top Dog

    I stayed out of the prong discussion, and the clicker for the surly threads because I knew the way they would both turn, I have to admit the surly one was kind of funny and I was wrong about that one...........

    When I was younger it was choke collars, then as a young adult, prong collar and the host of baggage that surrounds it. I no longer use a choke, but I will still use a prong, I have had great success with it and I really feel no need to defend my use of it. I also refuse to listen to people lump me as a "dog abuser". Get over it, end of story.

    Kim, I have to say I love your posts, why? Because they are respectful to others. You do not use your preference or passion for a tool to what I am going to term "browbeat" others. I have actually started more clicker training with Kord, I have started transitioning out of my "good boy/dog" marker. It is slow going, but it is working. I guess you can say Kord and I are working together on it.

    I believe in passion, I believe that everyone has a right to their opinions, and the right to express them. I am a live and let live person, I do not force my will or beliefs on anyone.

    BUT............

     What I do not believe in, is people who feel it is their right to "browbeat" other's who do not follow their path of choice. It is human nature to take a stand, and defend it, but it can still be done with respect and should be something that no one thinks of, respect should be first, foremost and done without a thought.  I feel that some people need to go out and buy this book:

    http://search.barnesandnoble.com/booksearch/isbnInquiry.asp?z=y&EAN=9780471654650&itm=1

    Because of the lack of respect by some, for the rights of others, I stay out of, avoid and ignore certain threads. I find it very hard to respect, be inspired or take any interest in a thread when it founded on arrogance. The age old saying "I am posting it because of the lurkers" is a cop-out. I am not saying that lurkers don't learn anything, I am sure they do, but man, I wonder how many have bets going on the side about how a thread is going to turn.

    Shrug......just my 2 cents worth.

    • Gold Top Dog

    Benedict
    I just have to accept that anywhere you find an online community, it is going to be populated with passionate members. 

     

    I agree. But are you saying that this passion manifests as harsh criticism and insults of members who think differently? And is that OK? I don't think so. Or is it the need to be right that causes the judgments of those who would disagree as being inhumane toward their pets?

    I don't think we're going to agree on training philosophies and that's fine with me. And as far as being right, I'm right for me, like you said, but I don't insist that anyone agree. I really don't care what methods people use with their dogs and I am one passionate dog owner! Smile 

    I don't think passion OR needing to feel "right" or being vulnerable is an excuse to talk to other people like that.

    • Gold Top Dog

    FourIsCompany

    Benedict
    I just have to accept that anywhere you find an online community, it is going to be populated with passionate members. 

     

    I agree. But are you saying that this passion manifests as harsh criticism and insults of members who think differently? And is that OK? I don't think so. Or is it the need to be right that causes the judgments of those who would disagree as being inhumane toward their pets?

    I don't think we're going to agree on training philosophies and that's fine with me. And as far as being right, I'm right for me, like you said, but I don't insist that anyone agree. I really don't care what methods people use with their dogs and I am one passionate dog owner! Smile 

    I don't think passion OR needing to feel "right" or being vulnerable is an excuse to talk to other people like that.

    I'm sorry, I should have made my point clearer.

    No, I am not saying it's OK...even if we set aside for a moment the fact that it is not OK in the context of this forum and the rules here, I don't personally believe it is even morally OK to attack someone else for their beliefs.  Wars are started over that.  What I am saying isn't referring to attacks of others, but to vehement defense of oneself and one's training methods...or advocation of those training methods....that perhaps....just maybe....strongly held beliefs come across as arrogant when really the poster simply is trying to eliminate holes being picked in what they say.

    Attacks are, point blank, not allowed here.  If you see one, report it.  We WILL review it.  I...again, personally...do not see the point in even having a thread discussing those, since in no way shape or form will they ever be OK here and if there is one, it's because we've missed it.  There's 3 of us, and several thousand of you.  That's going to happen and the Report feature is the member's way of helping out. 

    • Gold Top Dog

    Nope, nobody likes to be called a dog abuser (or inhumane, or a killer of ones dog via the feeding of "substandard" food, etc).  Yet at some point, you have to pick up the pieces, get over it, and move on.  Not everyone is going to agree with your methods and some of them are not going to be nice about it.  That's the way it goes.

    If people do not like the fact that I use a prong on one of my dogs, oh well.  Jack tells me that he is comfortable in it and since he's the one I'm walking, he's who I listen to.  For a while I was feeding Jack Hill's j/d.  People kept telling me that whether or not it worked now it was going to kill him eventually, etc.  I ended up switching for reasons unrelated, but if someday I switch back and he starts doing much better, I'll stay with the j/d.  I'm actually going to start leaning towards not using corrections with Jack because they simply don't mean anything to him and I often feel like I am working against him rather than with him.  If people want to say that the only reason the corrections aren't working is because I'm a moron who cannot properly use them, fine, I'll be a moron who has much less frustration while working with her dog (and most likely a better behaved dog because I'll be working with a method that he is most responsive to).

    The thing is that when you shun an entire methodology because of the behavior of a few people who follow that methodology (a few out of many thousands of decent people), you are really cutting off your nose to spite your face.  I used to feel this way about CM when he first started being discussed on here.  I looked at the behavior of a few of those who followed his methods and decided that I didn't want anything to do with a guy who attracted people who behaved like that.  However, after I was able to check him out for myself, I found much of what he does interesting and I did learn something from it.  I don't agree with all of it, but I generally don't agree 100% with any trainer or method, so that's not saying anything.  

       

    • Gold Top Dog

    What I am saying isn't referring to attacks of others, but to vehement defense of oneself and one's training methods...or advocation of those training methods....that perhaps....just maybe....strongly held beliefs come across as arrogant when really the poster simply is trying to eliminate holes being picked in what they say.

    Very well put, Kate, and probably pretty close to the truth.  When views are diametrically opposed, it's hard to like the messenger who posts an opposing viewpoint, but it's still no reason to attack the person rather than the idea.

    • Gold Top Dog
     

    Benedict
    One point I would like to make - which is a point I have both made and seen made by others before - is that of COURSE every single person here is going to believe they're right about something, if not right about everything (LOL). 

     Ben for me it really is not about being right. I am here because I love dogs and I love to soak up knowledge about dogs. There are not many books on dog behavior or physiology or training that I have not read, some I have re-read. I know for an absolute fact that there is more to learn, I have not yet arrived. It has been a journey for me as I stated in my first post, an ever changing one all of it made because I love dogs and want to work with them, to know them and to connect with them.

     So it is not about being right, I am here, willing to learn, but I am also prideful and stubborn and I do not like things shoved down my throat and the very worst way to get me to change is to call me cruel or inhumane. (Not that you ever have) It is all about the delivery of the message. One of the dog training books that I have NOT read is "Dog Training For Dummies", the title puts me off, I am not stupid and resent the author suggesting that I am (I hate all the dummy books for that reason).  Now they just might be the best books on the market, but I will never know because I resent the manner in which the message is portrayed.

     

    Kim_MacMillan
    (Note:The same can be said for people of any philosophy. There has also been the fair share of flaming and condescending criticisms of clicker people too, I know I have experienced it, which is equally unwarranted, so I don't think there is one "right" party and one "wrong" party....but let's stick to the clicker for this thread).

     

    Kim

      There are so many good points in your post I cannot possibly address them all. I will say that your post is excellent and I have tremendous respect for the manner in which you communicate. In regards to the portion that I quoted, I will be the first to step up and admit that I have made some rude and flaming statements, IMO they were all because I had reached that point of “surliness” due to some comment being posted by someone who wanted to flame me or someone else.  That of course does not make them right but I do prefer to debate and learn rather than attack and flame, to me there is a difference in the two.

     Anyway great post. I enjoyed reading it.

    luvmyswissy
    The word "humane" or the statements that you be more "humane" are very emotional to me.  I don't like people insinuating that I am not caring and humane.

     I think you nailed it luv, I know for me it is not about being wrong, or about someone perceiving me as lacking in knowledge, it is that someone would assume that I am inhumane. That I hurt my dogs because I want shortcuts and fast results. That is really the root of the issue IMO. Now mind you once you have reached the state where you think others are misjudging you, well then pride sets in and it is pretty hard to be “wrong” or to receive any useful message or instruction from those who are doing the misjudging or from anyone who even seems to be in their “camp”.

    sillysally
    The thing is that when you shun an entire methodology because of the behavior of a few people who follow that methodology (a few out of many thousands of decent people), you are really cutting off your nose to spite your face. 

     I have not shunned the methodology and have been utilizing many techniques from many positive trainers, I use marker words all the time and just have never clicked with the clicker, and I still argue that I am far more “positive” than the “positive” people ever give me credit for. I think what I have shunned is the discussion and opportunity to learn from others here who utilize the methodology. A good example is some great info that Kim has provided in the “surly” thread. I came darn close to not even posting in that thread and would have missed all that she had to offer.

     

    Four, Truly and any others I might have missed great posts and very good responses. I hesitated to even post the topic and my intentions were probably not to use it to foster good conversation as most of it came out of my frustration with the “prong” thread but all in all I am glad I did and pleasantly surprised to see that it went in a (knocks on wood) good direction.

     My post might be a little jumpy, I have been working on it for awhile and cooking and playing with dogs and being interrupted so hopefully it all makes sense.

    • Gold Top Dog

    dgriego
     Ben for me it really is not about being right. I am here because I love dogs and I love to soak up knowledge about dogs.

     

    I agree, and me too.  I don't think it is, or should be, about *being* right...only that if none of us had any confidence in our own abilities to do anything in the right way for ourselves, not only would we probably not own dogs, we'd probably not get out of bed in the morning.  On some level, we have to believe that we are putting one foot in front of the other in the right direction, or what is the point of the journey?  Sometimes wandering is fun, but not, IMHO, when it comes to something as important as the life of a creature for which we are wholly responsible.  Nothing in what I am saying precludes the intended direction from changing....just that we have to believe each individual step is the right one.   Some people are more vocal about that than others - provided it is done so respectfully, I have no issue with that and think it is a result of human nature.  I don't like things being shoved down my throat either, in ANY aspect of my life, and it's more likely to make me turn around and run as fast as I can as it would be to change my mind.  Knowing people who could stand to gentle the forcefulness of their opinions isn't something limited to my experiences online, though....but it does make the resolution more difficult.

    • Gold Top Dog

     Why This Surliness Towards Clickers?

    Because it works perfect for THEM, does it works perfect for me? Nope at all

    I thought i was humane to my dog before i got to this forum but i found out when i got here that are new "levels" to be "humane", those new levels are what i like to think as having a leash on a China plate, if you dont treat your dog as a China plate then you are not humane.

    Im really surely about my techniques, they have never failed but they are not "dumb-proof" so they are not for everybody, are they less good? heck no, they have saving me time, money, fights, bites, lawsuits, sleep hours and headaches

    If you think the clicker is the 8th world wonder thats ok, for me is not close to be even 1/32 of a wonder, do i spend my time in this forum trying to "convert" people into my techniques because of that? of course not, not everybody has the ability to do the techniques that i use in the right way, just like i dont have the time or patience to use the clicker for everything; they do, i dont (nor i want to)

    Am I willing to spend time, money, fights, bites, lawsuits, sleep hours, headaches and MOSTLY do what i dont want to do because what some unknown people hundreds of miles away, who have never met me or my dog whatsoever, think of me for not using a clicker? uuuummmmmmm NO

    • Gold Top Dog

    Lot's of good posts.

    I will be the first to admit I can get testy. I try not to post when I'm feeling passionate, but it happens.

    Despite my strong language, I am almost always willing to change my opinion if I am faced with information that is convincing. There are quite a few things I have changed my mind on, since hanging around here.

    I have a pathological need to strive for balance. When the CM holy zone existed here, it drove me up the WALL. And it drives me up the wall to have clickers forced down people's throats, without even a spoonful of sugar to follow. Trust me, if tomorrow all the more positive type trainers fled from idog and people started badmouthing clickers, I'd defend the clickers. I'm a herding dog. Embarrassed

    The clickers for surly people thread is humorous, but a serious thread for support. I noticed that I was letting my emotional reactions push me away from something I'd otherwise be doing, and I wanted to encourage myself to get past it. And I have learned really good stuff there!