Why This Surliness Towards Clickers (and other great questions)

    • Gold Top Dog

    FourIsCompany
    I think it might be hard for some and not-so-hard for others. Maybe because I'm a musician, the timing and everything about the movement of behavior marking is absolutely natural to me.

    Excellent point. Being a musician, as well, I am keen on timing, too.

    "The girls got rhythm" - AC/DC

    • Gold Top Dog

    FourIsCompany

    DPU
    I don't think the timing thing is hard at all.

     

    I don't either. I think it might be hard for some and not-so-hard for others. Maybe because I'm a musician, the timing and everything about the movement of behavior marking is absolutely natural to me. I haven't come up against anything that I find "hard" about clicker training (except for the fact that I find it "easier" to show and tell the dog what I want and praise him for doing it, than to figure out how to get him to do something without any guidance). That's the only "hard" thing about clicker training to me. And that makes me a little Super Angry but not much. Smile

     

    It depends what kind of dog you have.  If you have a dog who is accustomed to moulding or lure-reward perhaps with a few corrections thrown in, the timing is relatively EASY!  However, the hard part is - the dog is more inhibited about offering new behaviours.  It can be a bit frustrating.  It is extremely tempting to do as you have always done and guide them to what you want.  I have a dog like this.  Clicking is a real challenge with him - it feels a bit kind of awkward.  Sometimes I catch myself thinking "why am I doing this again?  Why don't I just show him??It would be much less long winded and complicated....."

    I have a younger, much more "operant" dog who was trained using much less lure-reward, no moulding and hardly any corrections at all (almost none from me).  Timing with her is HARD.  It's a case of CATCHING the right behaviour as it goes zipping by!  She is eager and creative.  Shaping with her is a joy however.  She figures out what I want fast and we both have enormous fun getting there.

    The other dog is now beginning to have the same fun, but it took time to allow him to get it and sometimes I had to sit on my hands, or just jackpot and end a session.  So I can answer myself - that's why I do it!  Because it's fun to be creative and it seems a terrible waste not to tap into this wonderful potential that is just lying there, dormant and waiting....
     

    • Gold Top Dog

     I personally don't think the timing is hard, but I have also been through numerous beginner classes with average Joes who are trying to hold the leash, get the treat, get the click, etc. and you can see them becoming frustrated. Like anything, it will get easier with practice, but I think that initial challenge can be a turn off for a lot of average Joes, or people who have had success with other kinds of training.

    To Chuff'y's point, my timing got a lot better when I got Luna. She was raised by clicker training, and being a high-drive Aussie is extremely fast. To capture behaviors with her, or in shaping, my timing had to get much faster. I agree that it's a ton of fun to train a dog like this. I love that Luna is as engaged in the game as I am.

    For those who already have great hand-eye coordination, I think it probably does come faster and you are lucky!

    My point was more about the average Joe and why they may choose not to try or stick with clicking.
     

    • Gold Top Dog

     I taught clicker based training classes for years and actually had great success with the majority of average Joes I had. For some people though, it was just too much so they didn't use the clicker. I tried to present it in an easy to use way and all i asked what that the owners try it, some didn't stick with it and that is ok too. I do admit though that I had next to no success with teaching elderly owners to use clicker training.

    • Gold Top Dog

    AgileGSD

     I taught clicker based training classes for years and actually had great success with the majority of average Joes I had. For some people though, it was just too much so they didn't use the clicker. I tried to present it in an easy to use way and all i asked what that the owners try it, some didn't stick with it and that is ok too. I do admit though that I had next to no success with teaching elderly owners to use clicker training.

     

    I don't think that having little success with elders and clicker training is a result of the method, however.  I find it's more whether the elders you are teaching are "with it" and have sufficiently quick reflexes.  Many of my older students have grasped the concept nicely.  One couple in particular, who I never actually thought would get it, and who were both in their seventies, managed to train two adolescent GSD's not to jump on their counters.  These were two highly educated and active people, though - the hubby was a physicist I think.  So, there are certainly other factors at work, and I try not to make any assumptions based on age.  I do adjust my teaching style, and pay attention to the speed at which I speak, and whether I think there's too much background noise - then, I might devote a bit of one on one time to repeating myself for the older learner.  (The GSD people had me come to their home, so noise was not an issue.)

    I think that, of the seniors who don't "get it",  they don't get lure/reward or correction training either.  I think a lot of that has to do with diminished hearing, reaction time, etc.  Maybe I have a little more success with the older crowd because I'm about to join them, LOL, but I've managed to alter my teaching style and my class structure to make it a bit easier for them.  I do have a very few that never get it, but that's true of all the other age groups as well.  I've met some really dumb 20, 30, 40, and 50-somethings, too! 

    Some of my older students are actually fascinated by the clicker, and one older guy looked right at me the first night of class and said - "This is Pavlov, right?"  When I shook my head yes, he seemed joyful - something he already knew!  And, his dog did just fine. 

    Cool
     

    • Gold Top Dog
    dgriego
    If you would like to explain why you are surly towards clickers and perhaps the word positive please feel free to state you case.

     

     

    My opinion on this will not be popular I am sure but, I have always found   simple choke collar to be most effective. The dog self corrects when used properly with the look of extreame prejudice a prong collar displays.  I rarely need more than a couple of quick pops for the dog to respect the collar.   Positive training in my opinion is like being your kid's best ffriend...in a perfect world it works but in most realities  not really for everyone,  As for Clickers...I  have never been able to carry enough to throw at the dog to get thier attention.....JK...

    Bonita of Bwana

    • Silver

    Ok, I am going to try and explain what I mean and give a comparison, if it doesn't sound right please don't assume, ask and I'll try to explain myself better, thanks.

    I often think that reformed smokers and positive and/or clicker trainers are the same.  Many of us have use other methods and with success, but over the years have moved on to clickers etc with success.  And like the reformed smoker, we now become a pain in the *** trying to enlighten people or share our success etc.  I do believe that it is meant with the best of intentions, but that is often lost by one wrong word or sentence.  And yes there can be a certain amount of surliness, especially when the misconceptions about the method are sometimes so in our face...........I recently viewed a trainers website, it was very anti clicker/ positive reinforcement etc.  And it went so far to state on the first page that rewarding/clicking made dogs aggressive.

    Now I am a smoker and yes I know I should quit and that it isn't good for me but I sure get my back up when a reformed smoker starts in on me.  Please don't take that statement to be that I think that other methods of training are abusive, inhumane etc.  My point is that I do understand how people can feel when chatting with a reformed whatever.........lol

     Gezz did that make a lick of sense??????????  or do I need to try another rambling attempt?

    Hmmmm maybe I shouldn't try to quit smoking, being a reformed smoker AND a clicker lover could get me into some serious trouble Surprise

    • Gold Top Dog

    Bonita of Bwana

     

     

    My opinion on this will not be popular I am sure but, I have always found   simple choke collar to be most effective. The dog self corrects when used properly with the look of extreame prejudice a prong collar displays.  I rarely need more than a couple of quick pops for the dog to respect the collar.   Positive training in my opinion is like being your kid's best ffriend...in a perfect world it works but in most realities  not really for everyone,  As for Clickers...I  have never been able to carry enough to throw at the dog to get thier attention.....JK...

    Bonita of Bwana

     

    Bigger clickers, Bonita, bigger clickers. Stick out tongue 

     

    • Gold Top Dog

    Ado
    I often think that reformed smokers and positive and/or clicker trainers are the same. 

     

    I agree. But! They have a choice to be a PAIN or not, once "reformed". I quit smoking (I don't call myself reformed, because I don't think of it in those terms - it's a choice) 7 years ago and while I'm quite happy and proud about it and will provide support to anyone who asks for it, I will never act like, say... my sister, who, upon quitting smoking felt it was her duty to harass all the smokers she knew with the glory of quitting and constantly bug them about why they, too, should quit. Ack! She drove me nuts for years! I have never bugged anyone about quitting smoking because I remember how much I hated being hassled about it.

    And, being atheist, I get the same kind of pressure from religious folks I know. I'm happy they're happy, but it's not for me, ok?  Smile

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    • Gold Top Dog

    Dog_ma

    Bigger clickers, Bonita, bigger clickers. Stick out tongue 

    with evil-looking spikes, too...?Wink

    • Gold Top Dog
    miranadobe
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    miranadobe wrote the following post at 02-25-2008 12:59 PM:

    Dog_ma

    Bigger clickers, Bonita, bigger clickers. Stick out tongue 

    with evil-looking spikes, too...?Wink

    Sorry guys I still think I would most likely miss !!  I have always loved the positive idea of training ...BUT like meditation I can not sit and empty my mind with an OHHHHMMMMMM.  I could click all day and I am reasonably sure my pack would laugh thier buns off !!.  I use minor corrections, never enough to cause harm. I am a retired RN and have a pretty decent feeling for limits.  I think the anology of clicker training  and now non smokers is incorrect. I would liken it more to the passion that Raw Feeders feel.  A Rabid Raw Feeder tends to denigrade or disminss the efforts of others.  Somehow when you speak with them what you are doing is never , ever enough.  You can offer concret proof that your kibble is massively expensive and carefully thought out for your baby.  But a Rabid Raw Feeder will look at you as if you simply don' "get It"

    Bonita of Bwana

      

    • Gold Top Dog

    spiritdogs

    I don't think that having little success with elders and clicker training is a result of the method, however.  

     

     I never implied it was a problem with the method, just that IME it was more difficult for elderly owners. A few did great with it but many never seemed to quite get the concept - it was just too odd and/or awkward for them. Some in my class had bad arthritis and simply couldn't not operate the clickers. I taught clicker based classes with good success for years but all methods have some limitations or some cases where something else would work easier and/or quicker :)

    • Gold Top Dog

    There are several reasons I don't like clickers and would never use one in training.

    First of all, it's a mistake to think that dogs learn through making mental associations. They don't. They learn to choose behaviors that they find successfully reduce their own internal levels of tension or stress. It's learning by homeostasis, if you will, not through external rewards. Looked at from this perspective, learning happens on a visceral and emotional, not a mental, level. The way I see it, clicking actually gets in the way of this normal, natural learning process. It runs the energy through the wrong channel, so to speak. And the dog actually has to work harder to learn things than he would if he were energized during the training process. When a dog is energized he can learn a new behavior once, with no repetitions, and he'll never forget the lesson for the rest of his life. Link: http://www.tiny.cc/playbenefits You can't get that kind of learning through clicker training.

    Yes, clicking is a great tool, I suppose, for training dolphins at a distance, or even gun dogs in the field (which was its original application). But I see no earthly need to use it with pet dogs. (Nor does Bob Bailey, by the way.) When a dog is trained properly, learning is its own reward. We don't need to cram learning into this outmoded Skinner box.

    Let me put it another way, if you get a dog to focus on you, whether you use a treat, a tennis ball, or your own playful body language, an emotional, energetic connection takes place, and training becomes more like a dance than a "you do this and you get a reward" kind of dynamic. I've often come across clicker trainers (Karen Pryor, for example, who frankly doesn't know anything about dogs) saying, "Dogs are only in it for themselves." This is so untrue. Of any species on the planet dogs have the least amount of the "selfish gene" imaginable! They come into this life wanting to be part of a group dynamic. They yearn to be taught how to put their energy toward a group purpose. To repeat: For dogs, learning to obey the trainer is its own reward. You don't need extrinsic reinforcers. They live for this stuff!

    Also, when done improperly, clicker training creates hyper-anxiety. Too many owners and trainers ignore this, thinking if the dog is producing physical behaviors on command, they've been successful. (I've also heard a lot of clicker trainers complain privately that their dogs have developed food-related misbehaviors, such as scavenging, counter-surfing, etc.)

    Finally, from what I've observed in the changing dynamics of the dog training world over the past 40 years (though I've only been an active participant for the last 20), 85% of most training success belongs to the dog, and only 15% to the trainer or his or her methods. In other words, everyone has their favored methods that fit their own personality, and they pat themselves (and their method on the pack) when they're successful, ignoring the fact that every dog who ever lived was born wanting to learn and obey. They're genetically engineered for obedience. Dominance trainers are attracted to their method due to their own emotional pathology (it gives them a sense of power), and I think clicker trainers are attracted to theirs because it's so linear; my impression is that  most clicker trainers have trouble dealing with the true nonlinear nature of behavior and learning.

    Fortunately, clicker training is just a fad. It hasn't caught on the way Karen Pryor and others hoped it would... 

    LCK
     

    • Gold Top Dog

    Lee Charles Kelley
    Fortunately, clicker training is just a fad. It hasn't caught on the way Karen Pryor and others hoped it would... 

    A fad? Nah....in reality it's spreading into the world of humans, dogs, cats, birds, fish, all zoo animals, and any animal with a brain and spinal cord (and even some without a spinal cord!). If anything it is gaining in recognition and is very quickly spreading worldwide to all species capable of learning. Don't worry, it's not going anywhere. It's around to stay *G*.

    Lee Charles Kelley
    think clicker trainers are attracted to theirs because it's so linear; my impression is that  most clicker trainers have trouble dealing with the true nonlinear nature of behavior and learning.

    Actually, I'm attracted to many nonlinear ways of behvaiour and learning. But it doesn't negate the effectiveness as the clicker in part of my toolkit. Big Smile

    This is one huge area you and I part ways. But that's cool. The world would be boring if we agreed on everything.

     

     

    • Gold Top Dog

    Lee Charles Kelley
    Dominance trainers are attracted to their method due to their own emotional pathology (it gives them a sense of power), and I think clicker trainers are attracted to theirs because it's so linear; my impression is that  most clicker trainers have trouble dealing with the true nonlinear nature of behavior and learning.

     

    Fortunately, the world of dog trainers and owners is not so black and white that each person fits into either the "clicker trainer" box or the "dominance trainer" box or some other box. Lots of us don't have a box at all. Wink We take a little from this box and a little from that box and use as it is appropriate. I don't know if there's a box for the "eclectic trainer"... I think we're more "outside the box".

    Linear is good sometimes. Non-linear is also good. It's all good! Stick out tongue