I don't know how to approach this...

pumaward

If it weren't for good socialization

Thats exactly the issue, is not that any dog is "naturally aggressive" is that they are not well socialized, they are let to be dominant, etc. Like i said before, aggressiveness its NOT an enjoyable feeling for a dog, not even one dog would trade to be aggressive that to be calm and relaxed, if a dog is dog-aggressive its just and only because the owners fault, yeah is not a good pill to swallow for the human and its easier to blame the breed but thats how it is, it does not matter which excuse the owner has  

espencer

pumaward

If it weren't for good socialization

 

Thats exactly the issue, is not that any dog is "naturally aggressive" is that they are not well socialized, they are let to be dominant, etc. Like i said before, aggressiveness its NOT an enjoyable feeling for a dog, not even one dog would trade to be aggressive that to be calm and relaxed, if a dog is dog-aggressive its just and only because the owners fault, yeah is not a good pill to swallow for the human and its easier to blame the breed but thats how it is, it does not matter which excuse the owner has  

That's an erroneous statement.  Despite adequate socialization as juveniles, there are still some dogs that are prone to becoming dog aggressive as they mature, and it is not always an owner-induced problem.  Also, if a dog has a confident temperament, that is not the fault of the owner - it's only the fault of the owner if he/she allows the dog to exert undue control over the household.  Conversely, there are some breeds that are particularly suited to life in large packs, notably the hounds, that seem to do better at being appropriately civil to dogs they are unfamiliar with.  Just as there are Malamutes that love everyone, there are Foxhounds that are aggressive.  But, each breed has an overall tendency that has more to do with what they were bred to do.  Aussie like to weave and gather.  Huskies like to pull.  That, too doesn't mean that ALL Aussies would pass a HIT or that there aren't some Huskies that would rather be couch potatoes.  And, despite what you think, all dogs have the capacity for aggression, and some individuals are naturally more aggressive than others.  I doubt if anyone would try to argue that, as a breed, Cavalier King Charles Spaniels are more aggressive than Fila Brasilieros.

spiritdogs

Despite adequate socialization as juveniles, there are still some dogs that are prone to becoming dog aggressive as they mature, and it is not always an owner-induced problem.  Also, if a dog has a confident temperament, that is not the fault of the owner - it's only the fault of the owner if he/she allows the dog to exert undue control over the household....... And, despite what you think, all dogs have the capacity for aggression, and some individuals are naturally more aggressive than others.  I doubt if anyone would try to argue that, as a breed, Cavalier King Charles Spaniels are more aggressive than Fila Brasilieros.

Also you are twisting my words, i never talked about "confident temperament" being bad, you can have a perfect well behaved confident dog that is not dominant, i talked about dominant behavior 

I never said that any dog can not be aggressive, sure pit bulls are naturally more inclined to show aggressiveness than a chihuahua but any dog would rather to be aggressive than calm, i think the ego of some people (not naming anyone is specific) is way too big to accept that its their own fault and not the dog's, very convenient indeed

espencer

sure pit bulls are naturally more inclined to show aggressiveness than a chihuahua but any dog would rather to be aggressive than calm

I don't know about that. On the Dog Whisperer, it seems he's had more problems with a Chihuahua than any of the pit bulls he's dealt with.

ron2

espencer

sure pit bulls are naturally more inclined to show aggressiveness than a chihuahua but any dog would rather to be aggressive than calm

I don't know about that. On the Dog Whisperer, it seems he's had more problems with a Chihuahua than any of the pit bulls he's dealt with.

 

Actually i think that you really know about that, i dont see your point of pretending that its the other way

By the way, he has been dealing with only 2 aggressive chihuahuas and 3 aggressive pitbulls, so even your try to stir up the thread is wrong

I think Ron was making a joke.  But I was thinking the same thing when I read that statement that I have known three Chihuahuas and probably two pitbulls.  The Chihuauas were all aggressive but neither of the Pits were. 

I also agree that aggression is not always the fault of the owner.  I also think when presented with the problem of aggression most owners (many owners) don't know how to fix it always but that dosen't mean they created it.  River came home to me at 8 weeks old with resource guarding signs.  I didn't make him a resource guarder but I didn't know how to work at correcting it right away either (I did learn) but that dosen't make it my fault.

luvmyswissy

I also agree that aggression is not always the fault of the owner.  I also think when presented with the problem of aggression most owners (many owners) don't know how to fix it always but that dosen't mean they created it.  River came home to me at 8 weeks old with resource guarding signs.  I didn't make him a resource guarder but I didn't know how to work at correcting it right away either (I did learn) but that dosen't make it my fault.

Your dog came to you with a problem created by the previous owner by allowing the puppies to "compete" for the food, it was the owner's fault for not to prevent that behavior, again, it was a human who created the problem by doing or not doing something about it, i agree is not your fault but still is a human fault. Its easier for the human to place a huge plate for everybody to eat rather than to have a plate for each one to exactly prevent resource guarding 

Dog_ma

 So much so, that if a we are forced into that situation I remove all pressure from the leash and if need be drop it. I really dislike dropping a leash, but there have been a few times that doing so has helped avoid a fight.

I think this is a really important point. The more tension on a leash during a meeting, the more tense I think the dog is, and that is relayed in their body language, which then creates tension in the other dog and that causes the tension in the first dog to escalate more and so on and so on. My dog is a champion at dealing with tension on the leash and it doesn't have much effect on her emotional state, but if she thinks she ought to be meeting and greeting a dog and she can't get to it because the leash is too tight, she leans into it and tenses her own muscles to resist the pull of the leash. Even that gives her the appearance of being more tense, which could affect the way the greeting goes.

Penny is a star with other dogs on leash and is calm regardless of whether the other dog is ignoring her or straining and lunging and barking. I don't really know how she got so good at it, but I've never tried to stop her meeting another dog. But I'm lucky in that she has no interest in meeting a dog that's telling her it might attack her if she comes too close. I think you have to trust your dog at some point to know what they're doing with other dogs, but until you can trust that, I reckon the key is keeping the tension on the leash to an absolute minimum, even if it does mean letting it go (although I doubt someone else is going to be pleased to have a potentially aggressive dog bearing down on them and if they happen to carry Direct Stop or something similar, you're probably going to end up with a whole world of troubles you didn't have before).

I never said that any dog can not be aggressive, sure pit bulls are naturally more inclined to show aggressiveness than a chihuahua but any dog would rather to be aggressive than calm, i think the ego of some people (not naming anyone is specific) is way too big to accept that its their own fault and not the dog's, very convenient indeed

Actually, Pits are not more inclined to show aggressiveness in general.  Many of them are inclined to show aggression toward other dogs.  Most commonly they are not aggressive toward humans, even humans they don't know (don't get a Pit as a watch dog).  Chihuahuas, on the other hand, are known for their aggressive behavior toward both people and dogs (perhaps more due to over-breeding and over-indulgent owners than to what would be inherent in the breed). 

I don't know who you are referring to regarding ego, and I assume that it isn't me, since my dogs are not aggressive (unless you are climbing in the window in the dead of night to steal my silverware, in which case I excuse any behavior they direct at you).  *content removed, personally directed, rude*

To be honest, Ron, while he may have been joking, has a point.  I think the guy has more trouble with the little buggers like Chi's, too.  Maybe that's because Pits actually like people;-))
 

spiritdogs

To be honest, Ron, while he may have been joking, has a point

Yes, I was being cheeky but, to the point, he has dealt with a few pit bulls and only one had a seemingly DA problem with other dogs. But I distinctly remember the episode where the Chi would be willing to bite the son if he got near his mom. Another episode with a pit involved pent up energy chewing on things and a 30 minute walk with a loaded back pack seemed to help that. But CM has been bit by small dogs, including another Chihuahua where he was sitting on the couch and the dog was biting him and he was not reacting to it so that the dog would wear himself out.

And, to another point, not to poop on breed-specific boards but might some of the "common knowledge" about aggressive behavior in Mals depend on the human's viewpoint? After all, some of the first Sibe sites I went to talked about independent, domineering Sibes who will take the job of leader if you let them, which is not really accurate. And that they needed a strong hand, also not accurate. That you had to scruff and shake and lock eyes to establish dominance. Also ineffective. But, at the time, they were a respectable source for me, as I knew nothing about Sibes, even though I admired them. I knew more about Labs, having been around them. I'm not discounting a temperment issue wherein a dog is comfortable with others he has been introduced to and not with stranger dogs. It just seems that Mals are getting the same bad rep as Pit Bulls. My dog doesn't always get along with all other dogs, forever and amen. It's not like they have union cards. "Yeah, I'm with butt-sniffer local 729.";) I think the thing with them is the same with any physically powerful breed. A big, strong dog can do more damage, even by accident. And that's my twerpish two cents.

spiritdogs

To be honest, Ron, while he may have been joking, has a point.  I think the guy has more trouble with the little buggers like Chi's, too.  Maybe that's because Pits actually like people;-))

ron2

But I distinctly remember the episode where the Chi would be willing to bite the son if he got near his mom. Another episode with a pit involved pent up energy chewing on things and a 30 minute walk with a loaded back pack seemed to help that. But CM has been bit by small dogs, including another Chihuahua where he was sitting on the couch and the dog was biting him and he was not reacting to it so that the dog would wear himself out.

2 Chihuahuas, the one about the Mom and son was named Bandito, the one with him sitting on the couch and the Chihuahua biting him is named Nunu, Nunu's owner quit her job and now is CM assistant, that only 2 Chihuahuas

Now lets go to pitbulls: the one that we saw already who he did an the alpha roll on her, a white pitbull with a heart-shaped spot, the other one who the owner needed to have a chain on the dog's neck instead of a collar because he was pulling too much and wanted to attack any dog that was passing in front of the house, and another episode about a pitbull wanting to eat the owner's rabbit, thats 3 pitbulls

I would advice you not to play the "Dog Whisperer trivia" with me because you are going to loose  

spiritdogs

seems to solve every problem immediately with the same solution that it is applicable to everyone else's dogs

I didnt know you were watching the show every single week , weird because if you do then you would know that for shy dogs he actually does not make corrections, for under exercised dogs he does not make corrections, etc. I actually think that "positive reinforcement" wants to deal with every problem the same way, talking about the same solution that it is applicable to everyone else's dogs!!!!

spiritdogs

Actually, Pits are not more inclined to show aggressiveness in general.  Many of them are inclined to show aggression toward other dogs.  Most commonly they are not aggressive toward humans, even humans they don't know (don't get a Pit as a watch dog).  

I never said aggressiveness in general, you added that part, we are talking about dog-aggressive

spiritdogs

Chihuahuas, on the other hand, are known for their aggressive behavior toward both people and dogs (perhaps more due to over-breeding and over-indulgent owners than to what would be inherent in the breed). 

Wrong, that is a miss diagnosis, Chihuahuas are aggressive because the human is inclined more to humanize them and nurture them without satisfying their needs like walking, thinking that since they are too small they get their exercise walking around the house or they just simple carry them everywhere, again a miss diagnose that humans make, blaming the dog for a problem caused by the owners, easy and convenient, ego, ego, ego. If i needed a trainer (not naming anyone in specific) and that trainer was making those kind of diagnosis on my dog's problem i would rather to deal with it myself, i'm not a trainer but for sure i would be more accurate on knowing what's going on with my dog, i feel bad for those trainers clients, they think they are going with a "professional" (not naming anyone in specific) but that "professional" will actually make it worse

Note for all the newbies reading this thread: not because someone is a "professional trainer" (not naming anyone in specific) that means that she/he knows what she/he is doing

espencer

would advice you not to play the "Dog Whisperer trivia" with me because you are going to loose

I doubt it. I know of at least one eipsode that you don't remember at all. But that's another thread.

espencer

, Chihuahuas are aggressive

Some else said that, you just didn't like it. I do agree that humans are often the problem, but that doesn't negate a breed tendency, either. Although, the statement could really be about dogs of any breed.

espencer

Note for all the newbies reading this thread: not because someone is a "professional trainer" (not naming anyone in specific) that means that she/he knows what she/he is doing

And there's little doubt to whom you are referring. And the same could be said about people without certs, training, professional status, regardless of how many dogs or what breeds they have owned. Or whether they have a tv show and/or a catalog of videos, for that matter. As usual, we all use our best judgement, if possible.

espencer

Note for all the newbies reading this thread: not because someone is a "professional trainer" (not naming anyone in specific) that means that she/he knows what she/he is doing

That might be true for some trainers but I would much rather take advise from a professional who has expierence and who is training with a method I agree with rather than take the advise of someone who's only expierece is from watching TV. 

So for the newbie's out there, please do your homework before you decide to take advice.  And make sure it makes sense to YOU.

luvmyswissy

That might be true for some trainers but I would much rather take advise from a professional who has expierence and who is training with a method I agree with rather than take the advise of someone who's only expierece is from watching TV. 

I doubt that there is anyone here who's experience is limited to watch TV, most of us here are not trainers but i bet you have watched DVD's and read books, does that mean that you cant give advice? i for example have done that too, gone to seminars and have first hand experience with my dogs and friend's dogs, one of them human aggressive

ron2

I doubt it. I know of at least one eipsode that you don't remember at all.

I dont doubt it, i have seen that episode and all the rest, i only saw it differently than what you did, since you dont really agree with him i doubt that you watch it every week as i do 

What I really don't understand is how, when some one uses different training methods, they automatically know nothing. And before you can really downplay a method, you must first try it. If you haven't tried clicker training, how can you say it will not work? If you haven't watched Milan, how can you judgethe methods that so many people like? If you haven't tried all the methods on a difficult dog, how can you say which is best? Everybody have their opinions, I tend to follow the clicker training camp because that's what's given me results.

 I don't watch the Dog Whisperer because I simply don't agree with his methods and I really find the show boring after a while because it seems like the same handful of episodes over and over but with different dogs and owners, (that's a personal view). I do like Victoria Stilwell. She gets results just like Milan but uses vastly different techniques in most cases.

That said, I still don't agree with everything she says and does. It's a T.V. show, and no matter how well done, it will never replace a good book, or, even better, a living breathing trainer/behaviorist. I tend to follow camps that have studied behavior more and have developed training methods that seem to better suit an animal's behavior.

Anyway, this has gotten extremely off topic.