I don't know how to approach this...

I gotta side with Anne on this one - and if anything I'm both on the front, second and third lines by your definition DPU.  I work at a shelter and evaluate dogs as they come in for various reasons (just yesterday I did a cat eval with a coonhound, a few days before that a full eval on a Rottie, etc.).  I've fostered (though not near as many as others on this board), I've handled dogs at adoption events, and I'm the sole instructor for all the dog training classes offered to the public by the shelter I work at.

Given all my experiences, if I intro dogs at work, I tend to prefer off leash, separated by a fence first then off leash, dragging a line just in case. I have done on lead intros before but they are not nose to nose, rather they are parallel walks with a curving approach once I've assessed the situation.

When I handled dogs for adoption we were at places where other dogs were rare and we specifically didn't introduce dogs face to face there, either.  We had a few issues with the adoption dogs getting into "arguments", so we redesigned the set up and spaced the animals out further, specifically training handler not to allow nose to nose contact.  The dogs were expected to ignore each other and it didn't have any effect on how quickly a specific dog was adopted.

In my classes, dogs work next to each other but are expected to ignore others and if they can't, then we put them somewhere else on the floor, often behind a visual barrier, until they can learn to control themselves (usually only a week or two).  Even the dogs that have playgroups as part of class (baby puppies and adolescents under 10mo) are expected to ignore other dogs when leashed and when off leash are supervised heavily.

Expecting a dog to meet n greet on leash, especially with a nervous owner on the other end is just unfair to the dog.  I'm not saying it can't be done, nor that dogs that can handle it shouldn't be able to meet n greet other dogs similar to them, but there needs to be much more thought put into the intial work before just tossing the dog into a specific situation and expecting them to be able to deal with it appropriately.

Kudos to the OP for realizing that she had a role to play and finding ways to address the issues she's having!

Maybe DPU you could share with OP how you would handle this and give her advise and options as she is asking.  Sometimes I think you add lots of confusion by always popping in and discounting others advise instead of offering an alternative - which you never seem to do.  I don't have any dogs who are aggressive with others, they just aren't by nature.  But if I did, and was looking for advise and the only advise I get is shot down by someone then I would be where I am today, confused and not know how to approach it.

Although you don't agree it is good advise .  It can't hurt to be careful with how the dogs are greeted since it is important in the beginning to be cautious.

 OP,  I believe that socialization is key so what your doing with daycare and classes is an excellent start.  Being cautious and not allowing dogs to meet face to face is more good advice.  Trying to only introduce your dog with dogs who seem very laid back and good with others is another good start.  I am not experienced with this but I would start by doing what your doing too.  I can only say that training at this level takes time and experience and you will find your way.  Your dog being an adolescent now is probably part of the problem too, so you do have to "nip it in the bud", good luck and keep us posted. 

DPU, you are twisting other people's words to support your argument. Mudpuppy did not say "never let any dogs meet on leash." She said she would not let HER dogs do so. That is a perfectly valid stance, whether you have a non-reactive dog who you'd like to keep that way, or a reactive dog you're trying to rehab.

You are very fond of touting the value of hands on experience. You do Petsmart shows, and you foster dogs in your house. How many hours a week do you spend walking a reactive dog? I've logged a ton. And meeting strange dogs face to face while leashed is the biggest possible  disaster I can have happen. So much so, that if a we are forced into that situation I remove all pressure from the leash and if need be drop it. I really dislike dropping a leash, but there have been a few times that doing so has helped avoid a fight.

Ivan was aggressive on leash. Sasha is reactive. (Meaning she doesn't want to fight, but she's anxious and has baggage and tends to overreact to bad manners). The best thing for both of them was to teach them to ignore other dogs while leashed. Leash = pay attention to ME.

Now, if dogs have to be leashed and will be spending time together, there are ways to acclimate the dogs to each others' presence without jumping into nose-to-nose meetings. You mentioned there are usually issues in the beginning, that calm down? Because on leash meetings are threatening, and dogs get along better when given he chance to spend time together while having their space respected. Slow dog greetings are more polite dog greetings. Hang around, sniff the ground, show each other that you're not going straight for an attack. After that, closer sniffing is appropriate.

pumaward

I know mals have a breed tendancy towards dog aggression

I would have to disagree there, i'm owning my second malamute now and i can tell you that actually is the opposite, breeders since a long time ago have been careful to make Malamutes friendly towards other dogs, why? because dog-aggressive Malamutes would not do well on a sled pack, you cant have Malamutes that would want to attack each other while pulling your sled.

denise m

I guess it all depends on your expectations of owning and living with a dog. A big part of life with our dog is walking and enjoying the neighborhood (on leash). This includes meeting and greeting many neighbors and their dogs whether it be a quick "hi, how are you" or a 15 minute chat at on the front lawn. I have taken great pains to ensure that my dog can approach and be approached while on leash.

Agreed

spiritdogs

Put the leash back on and that dog could have a spat with its doggy day care best pal.

That does not even sound logical but i would like to hear your explanation, not to be able to flight and fight instead you might say, why a dog would feel the need to escape from his doggy care best friend, not to be able because of the leash and decides to fight instead?

To tell you the truth i dont even think leash reactivity really exists, i think they are actually a lot of other problems that the owner does not see and blames it to the leash, i.e. under socialization, dominant behavior, rude body language, territorial issues, protectiveness of the owner, the owner's actual behavior while holding the leash (nervous, anxious, afraid), etc.

Dog_ma

DPU, you are twisting other people's words to support your argument. Mudpuppy did not say "never let any dogs meet on leash." She said she would not let HER dogs do so. That is a perfectly valid stance, whether you have a non-reactive dog who you'd like to keep that way, or a reactive dog you're trying to rehab.

Here is the exact quote from Muddpuppy. 

"I never ever let my dogs "meet" other dogs while on leash. Bad idea all around. You want your dog to learn to IGNORE other dogs while she is on leash."

I really don't need to add to the good advise of others.  But I will "pop" in a thread when I feel someone's advise is hurting the chances of shelters dogs being adopted.  Reactive dogs to other dogs can be fixed and it does not have to take 8 years plus to do it.  There are different degrees of reactivity and probably as many different approaches to fix it.  I have a foster whose degree of reaction is so intense it is beyond me.  I realized this early so I worked on the things I can do and will help the dog but not in a direct way....I worked on satisfying the dog's emotional needs.  The dog is now in the hands of a behaviorist who has agreed to work with this dog while the dog is living with her for 2 to 4 weeks. 

Dogma, I don't give up on behavior problems.  These behavior problems cause such tension when they occur and I don't like to see a dog miserable.  When you manage behavior problems, you are going to make a mistake and the problem behavior exhibited could be worse.  My rehab of a foster dog includes getting the dog to a well-balanced state. 

pumaward

I know I contributed by tugging at the leash, I may have even caused it.

That would depend, if you were tugging back then that triggers the mind to go forward, specially on a Malamute bred to pull, you do it sideways that snaps the mind out of it

pumaward

P.S. I am not going to correct her by physical means as I feel that will make her worse (it always has on any behavior problem).

As i explained before maybe it was your own behavior towards the situation which is triggering the dog and the leash has nothing to do here.

Mals are very independent and dominant inclined, as you might heard if you investigated the breed before getting your dog, a Mal is not for everybody (i'm not saying that you should not have one), sure you can choose any technique that you want but not all techniques have the best results for a VERY independent dog, if you choose the wrong approach you should expect A LOT of headaches

 Where'd the 8 year figure come from DPU?  And how does this conversation relate to shelter dogs?!  The OP's dog is in her home and has been for a while from what I understand.

Mals are very independent and dominant inclined, as you might heard if you investigated the breed before getting your dog, a Mal is not for everybody (i'm not saying that you should not have one)

I grew up with a malamute and an akita. I was aware of the way malamutes were well ahead of time. I shouldn't have gotten a dog at 18, but that's a whole different story.  I have had her for 3 years, so it isn't new info for me.

sure you can choose any technique that you want but not all techniques have the best results for a VERY independent dog, if you choose the wrong approach you should expect A LOT of headaches

 I agree, that's why I don't use corrective training techniques in general. I know my dog. I started out with the correction based training (Monk's style) and watching Milan religiously. I had an outta control malamute at around 7 months that clearly did not respond well to it. I switched techniques after joining this board and reading "Culture Clash" and, voila, my dog started listening and tuning it. She responded especially well to clicker training, which I used for everything from recall to loose leash walking.

Now, I believe that she has only gotten worse this winter, after 2-3 instances where offleash dogs charged her and barked at her. You may disagree with me, and that's fine, but I think that correcting her will enforce her belief that dogs=bad things. I'd rather reward her for appropriate responses than punish her for incorrect ones.

This has so far served me well. I am very ahppy to report that he didn't so much as raise a hackle at the vet's office the other day, and she listened when I said "watch" when an offleash lab was close. Previously, she would have dragged me toward him, or, at least, have stared until he was out of sight. I know I am far from done, but it's always good to see improvement. Thanks everyone

espencer

I would have to disagree there, i'm owning my second malamute now and i can tell you that actually is the opposite, breeders since a long time ago have been careful to make Malamutes friendly towards other dogs, why? because dog-aggressive Malamutes would not do well on a sled pack, you cant have Malamutes that would want to attack each other while pulling your sled.

That does not even sound logical but i would like to hear your explanation, not to be able to flight and fight instead you might say, why a dog would feel the need to escape from his doggy care best friend, not to be able because of the leash and decides to fight instead?

 Most info I have read about Malamutes is that they are quite prone to same sex aggression.

 As for it not sounding logical that a dog would, once on lead attack his "daycare buddy" - I saw this on a regular basis in the 9 years I worked at a doggy daycare. Once on the other side of the fence or on lead many of the dogs who were fine in daycare with the dogs became hard to manage and acted quite aggressive. I ahave a feeling think depending it has to do with overstimulation, frustration, resource guarding and in some cases, fear. IME daycare dogs were more likely to become aggressive than most other dogs and I have read/heard from multiple sources the same thing about daycare and dog park dogs. Many dogs are fine off leash with dogs but act aggressive on lead, so it is not a "made up problem". Also consider that with protection dog training, dogs are generally held on a taunt leash during the entire early phase of training.

espencer

I would have to disagree there, i'm owning my second malamute now and i can tell you that actually is the opposite, breeders since a long time ago have been careful to make Malamutes friendly towards other dogs, why? because dog-aggressive Malamutes would not do well on a sled pack, you cant have Malamutes that would want to attack each other while pulling your sled.

I don't know about that.  I have an aquaintance who I know rather well who breeds, shows and competes with Mals.  Her male is the first CH MACH Mal in the country and she believes Mals are naturally dog aggressive and is not breeding away from that trait.  I always figured, like you, that since Mals pull in teams that they could not be dog aggressive, but her belief is that Mals are O.K. with members of their own team (pack), but not with dogs outside their team.  I asked a person who runs a Mal rescue about this and she said that it really depends, but it is best to assume there may be problems.

GoldenAC

but her belief is that Mals are O.K. with members of their own team (pack), but not with dogs outside their team.

Thats what i would call a "miss diagnosis" 

Malamutes are not dog aggressive, if they were only ok with their team members then you would have to raise the entire team since they are puppies and not to be able to change members if one of them die for whatever reason or/and add more members to the team, they are however dominant inclined, you cant have a submissive dog in the wild trying to survive in the snow while you are hunting for food

IF you let your Malamute to "exercise" his dominance left and right then for sure the pack will perform under his rules, not yours, he will decide who is going to be in or out the team, not you, he will decide who to be friendly to, not you. If you let him know that YOU are the leader of the team, then is YOUR rules, you decide who is in and out, you decide who to accept and who not to, etc. You dont need to be mean to them to achieve this

Even pitbulls who are more dog aggressive inclined are capable to achieve living with any breed of dog and any gender if you satisfy their needs and apply the same ideology, unfortunately not everybody is comfortable with this ideology and thats how the dogs start to show this type of problems

Every single book and article that talks about Malamutes tells you that you simply cant be a "softy" with them because they wont return the favor, that does not mean that you need to be a bully to them, hit them, etc but you need to be firm on teaching rules, boundaries and limitations. Malamutes are not for everybody

And by the way, i dont think there is one single breed that is "naturally dog aggressive", not even pitbulls, they can be dog-aggressive inclined IF AND ONLY their needs are not met daily, if they are met then all of them rather to be relaxed instead of see who to fight with, aggressive behavior is NOT an enjoyable feeling for any dog but of course its easier and more convenient to blame the breed than yourself (in general) for not to be able to meet their daily needs 

Just like my sig says: "There are not bad dogs, only bad owners" 

GoldenAC

I have an aquaintance who I know rather well who breeds, shows and competes with Mals.  Her male is the first CH MACH Mal in the country and she believes Mals are naturally dog aggressive

 Everything that I have read about malamutes and also spending some time on a malamute board, has indicated that malamutes are dog-aggression prone. In addition to being sled dogs, there's at least some people who believe that malamutes may have been "guard" dogs. I use the term loosely since we all know that they make poor guards . Anyway, some suspect that they defended villages from wolves.. obviously we know that wolves aren't a real threat to humans, but purhaps they ran the risk of losing food stores to them. In this case, being dog-aggressive to non-pack member would be a useful trait. Of course that may be pure lore, and we'll never really know.

espencer

Every single book and article that talks about Malamutes tells you that you simply cant be a "softy" with them because they wont return the favor, that does not mean that you need to be a bully to them, hit them, etc but you need to be firm on teaching rules, boundaries and limitations. Malamutes are not for everybody

I don't know if this is directed at anybody in particular, but, since I'm the one with the malamute behavior problem...

I would agree. I train using different techniques but it doesnt mean I let her run the household. She works for everything she wants, and somethings she doesn't on top of that. I don't reward bad behavior, unless solely by accident (dirty dish on coffee table is a reward, even though I consider licking it 'bad behavior';). I don't buy the philosophy that she's (or any dog) always looking to overthrow me (not saying you do or don't either).

That said, I don't need to slap a slip lead on her and leash pop her to teach her she's not the boss or that she can't flip out on another dog. There are many different techniques out there that are effective at teaching dogs things. My boss uses traditional training with slip leads (also a Milan fan) and has a very well behaved bull mastiff that isn't shut down by any means. I respect her and her methods, but their not mine. My dog learns better with reward based training, partly because I teach more effectively with it. Not all methods work for all dogs or all people.

 I didn't really ask for my methods to be scrutinized, but I guess they were (intentionally or not). I put the statement up in my original post because I have not found traditional methods useful for me and I don't personally like them. I still will not physically correct my dog for this behavior, and I'm going to leave it at that.

Thank you Anne and others for the book recommendations. They have been very used.

You have your Mal breeder and I have mine!  Shall we have them duke it out?  My point was only that not ALL Mal breeders have bred away from dog aggression.  Some very well respected breeders, whose dog's genes are in demand and influencing the breed think that dog to dog aggression is part of the breed. 

Sometimes aggression is a matter of genetics, not control.  I think it is funny that you assume that the breeder I know does not fulfills the needs of her dogs.  She drives around all winter with a dog sled on her truck and runs them as a team anytime there is snow (so she has been very happy this winter)  She trains daily for obedience and agility.  She runs them in the excellent level of agility, where dogs need to be off-leash in a very excited state (and her dogs do not go after other dogs when in the ring) and in Utility in obedience.  I have seen her training her dogs and she uses a correction and reward based system for training.  I am in awe of how much training she has put on these dogs.  She can control them, but they are still dog to dog aggressive.

GoldenAC

I think it is funny that you assume that the breeder I know does not fulfills the needs of her dogs. 

Quote please

GoldenAC

She can control them, but they are still dog to dog aggressive.

Then she actually cant control them, for someone so experienced its weird that her dogs still have behavioral problems, unless she just let them be that way with the perfect excuse of "they are just born that way, its in their DNA". Like i said before, not even pitbulls 

Genetics can play a huge role in behavior. In general, psychologist today have agreed that human and animal behavior is generally a result of nuture and nature, not one or the other. You can't ignore one or the other, as they both have great influences on the individual. If it weren't for good socialization, the fact is that many dogs would probably grow up dog aggressive without ever being "taught" it. It's a perfectly natural behavior for dogs, and animals in general, to be aggressive with unfamiliar individuals within their specie or closely related species. It all comes down to basic survival instincts. We humans simply find it unacceptable... even though we, ourselves, can be like that a lot.

Now, I don't necessarily agree that any dog this day should be bred if there are aggression issues, simply because there isn't a need for dog agressive dogs these days (in general). It's more a liability than an asset.