Prong Collars - dicuss

Admin speaking,

This thread will not be permitted to spiral into the realm of personal attacks, off-topic posts or anything else not befitting this forum.  All such posts will be edited, and all such edits will count towards the 3 edits necessary for a suspension.  ALL opinions are valid - they may not apply to you, or you may disagree with them.  That's fine, but debate or discuss POLITELY or not at all. 

Thank you. 

glenmar

Black Labbie, while I dont' agree with what you've been taught about the proper placement of the prong, or the use of corrections with a prong, I do fully understand the need to use one.  My short term use of a prong with Thor turned walks from dreaded battles of will and unequal battles of strenght that I couldn't hope to win,  to really enjoyable outings. 

Well, we can defiantly agree to disagree on the placement and use of corrections. But, I do agree with you on the need to use one; sometimes, with some dogs you need you use one as a short term training tool. We too went from a very unenjoyable walk, so an extremely enjoyable walk.

DPU

Have you ever been to the first day of a Clicker Training class?  I'll have to video tape it for you.  Your advise is very sound and it does take some forethought and planning when training a special needs dog.  No training method (Clicker-P or reward-correction or using the prong collar) HAS to excite a dog or cause an excitable reaction, But my point was, if you are only given a dog in front of you and you only know the dog has HD, then you don't know the "comfortable position" for sure or what movements from that "comfortable position" would cause pain.  Only time and observation from the dog's natural behavior would educate you.  Only when you are educated can the appropiate training method be selected.  With this particular dog, I am preceding cautiously until I know the dog better

You may have been to a clicker training class where this was the case, but not all clicker training classes are the same.  Like any type of training class, a lot depends on the teacher.  Or you could do clicker training on your own, not in a class where the dogs are all excited.

I don't either but I have enough sense not to put a prong collar on the dog or click throw rewards at the dog to get the dog to perform obedience behaviors.

You also don't have to throw the treats at the dog.  I guess I don't understand why you have dismissed the possibility of using clicker training with this dog but suggest you may use a prong collar. 

glenmar

I did do a lot of work in the yard and he'd do great in the yard, but when we'd get out front on the street, he'd turn into a locomotive.  And yes, I also did the play fetch until my arm fell off and his tongue was rolling, but something about the leash turned him into a mule headed bully.  IF the easy walk was around then, it wasn't readily available and I did order one later for Shadow and it didn't fit right.  I think now they may have corrected the fit problem.

I don't remember everything I did, but  I did a lot of quick turns, I did a LOT of standing there playing tree.....didn't phase him, he'd just pull me right off my feet.  Literally.

For what its worth, I never did use leash pops or corrections with a prong.  I let him self correct but I never let him hurt himself by getting to the end of the lead and lunging. 

This sounds like my initial work with Ivan and the prong. I think the last straw before prong was when he took off after a cat, straight towards a steep drop between houses, and I had to throw myself into the grass and dig my knees and elbows in to stop him. That hurt! But it was better than going over the edge or letting go.

And I have to add that while I am honest and unapologetic about the later use of prong corrections, that is not a technique I generally endorse and was an attempt to save him from euthanasia. I 

Thanks for your reply mudpuppy.

DogMa, things weren't anywhere near that point with Thro, but, he simply wasn't going to go for any more walks EVER if we couldn't control him and not end up getting hurt trying.  But, know what?  I won't apologize either for taking a step that allowed him to continue to enjoy life to the fullest, walks included.

BlackLabbie

Mudpuppy, I have to disagree with you. This has been the most effective way to stop pulling and jumping for us. Also, if used properly, weight is proper, and placement is proper, they are not painful at all. I do not think you should make statements that make it sound like people who are using the prong collar are using "inhumane" techniques and inflicting "A LOT of pain" on their dog- because we're not.

 Quote from http://www.johnknowsdogs.com/prong-collar-use.htm :

With the proper use of a quality collar, the prong collar will not cause pain to your dog. It’s proper use, and fit,  will not cause pain nor will it choke your dog.

Actually, I am a prong user and I have to disagree.  First of all, since you are not the dog wearing the prong you do not know what is painful and what is not, you can only go by the dog's body language, and what may be fine for your dog might be very painful for another.  Remember, labs are a rather pain insensitive breed.  According to Jack's physical therapy vet, they have one less tract communicating pain to their brains than do other dogs.  In other words, what may be an average correction to you dog (that he does not show pain response to) could cause another dog to yelp.

A tool is only as good as the hands it is in--it's like a bit on a horse.  You can take a bit that *looks* harsh, and probably would be harsh in the wrong hands, but with the right rider the horse goes wonderfully on it.  However, said rider should never, EVER forget that the bit he is using has the potential to cause real pain.

My trainer, who fitted Jack's prong and showed me how to use it disagrees with putting the prong up high on the dog's neck.  She had us put it right above where his flat collar goes.  According to her, placement very high on the neck is "designed to inflict the maximum amount of pain," and in her opinion that should not be the goal.  And this is someone who has no issue with the prong as a tool.  

sillysally

According to her, placement very high on the neck is "designed to inflict the maximum amount of pain," and in her opinion that should not be the goal.

BINGO!

Thank you.

Regardless of wether it causes pain or not it is still a negative reinforcement when correcting a dog. I cant see how dogs were mans' best friend and coworker for eons and the need for a prong collar has recently been introduced. Its a modern tool of conveinance and if there was no such thing you'd have to spend the extra quality time training your dog. Heck....if they can teach a 2 ton whale to jump through a ring of fire wihtout a prong or choke I'm sure domesticated dogs can be taught to walk nicely on a leash.

I however can see that the world is considerably more populated then eons ago thus bringing new stress factors to our animals that may require modern techniques for training but I think it takes away from the bonding and trust of the pack. Hearding dogs require a huge amount of training and they put all of our dogs to shame.......they are not trained with negative reinforcement or prong collars so how do ya explain that?

FYI, I have a vets bill from when I took Rory in from abrasions from her choke chain. She has very little hair on her neck so regardless of where I positioned the collar it hurt her. Rory learned to walk with a gentle lead. I weigh 100lbs and walk two full size pit bulls very well without a prong collar, now without a gentle lead and if my dogs get out of hand I rely on MY word not a tool.

sillysally

Actually, I am a prong user and I have to disagree.  First of all, since you are not the dog wearing the prong you do not know what is painful and what is not, you can only go by the dog's body language, and what may be fine for your dog might be very painful for another.  Remember, labs are a rather pain insensitive breed.  According to Jack's physical therapy vet, they have one less tract communicating pain to their brains than do other dogs.  In other words, what may be an average correction to you dog (that he does not show pain response to) could cause another dog to yelp.

A tool is only as good as the hands it is in--it's like a bit on a horse.  You can take a bit that *looks* harsh, and probably would be harsh in the wrong hands, but with the right rider the horse goes wonderfully on it.  However, said rider should never, EVER forget that the bit he is using has the potential to cause real pain.

My trainer, who fitted Jack's prong and showed me how to use it disagrees with putting the prong up high on the dog's neck.  She had us put it right above where his flat collar goes.  According to her, placement very high on the neck is "designed to inflict the maximum amount of pain," and in her opinion that should not be the goal.  And this is someone who has no issue with the prong as a tool.  

That's exactly why I posted, "This has been the most effective way to stop pulling and jumping for us." Notice I said us. I defiantly agree that a tool is only as good as the hands it is in. I know that prongs aren't for everyone and every dog. I'm not trying to promote them, I feel like I've just been defending why I use them.

Tool of convenience??  Reluctance to spend quality time training???

Yep, it wasn't terribly convenient for me to have either of my shoulders further damaged and force a replacement before my docs want to do one.  A shoulder replacement is BRUTAL and they only last 10-15 years, and can only be done 3X.  I'd rather be a little uncomfortable now than in agoney 30 or 40 years from now because they can't do a bloody thing to help because I've already gone through all my "replacements".  It aslo wasn't convenient being dragged down the road, literally, on my butt.  It was all I could do to STAY on my butt and not flip over and get even more parts damaged or road rashed.

And because I used this tool of convenience as a TRAINING tool for a SHORT TERM (rather than a halti or GL which could cause neck injuries) I can now walk 500 lbs of dog in town by myself without ever the tiniest bit of pulling.  BECAUSE I had to work harder, spend more quality time training Thor I learned one heck of a lot about what I was doing wrong and how to do it RIGHT with additional dogs.

Honestly?  I'd rather see a dog wearing a properly fitted, properly placed prong then a choker.  The choker is VERY likely to cause some serious damage.

BlackLabbie

sillysally

Actually, I am a prong user and I have to disagree.  First of all, since you are not the dog wearing the prong you do not know what is painful and what is not, you can only go by the dog's body language, and what may be fine for your dog might be very painful for another.  Remember, labs are a rather pain insensitive breed.  According to Jack's physical therapy vet, they have one less tract communicating pain to their brains than do other dogs.  In other words, what may be an average correction to you dog (that he does not show pain response to) could cause another dog to yelp.

A tool is only as good as the hands it is in--it's like a bit on a horse.  You can take a bit that *looks* harsh, and probably would be harsh in the wrong hands, but with the right rider the horse goes wonderfully on it.  However, said rider should never, EVER forget that the bit he is using has the potential to cause real pain.

My trainer, who fitted Jack's prong and showed me how to use it disagrees with putting the prong up high on the dog's neck.  She had us put it right above where his flat collar goes.  According to her, placement very high on the neck is "designed to inflict the maximum amount of pain," and in her opinion that should not be the goal.  And this is someone who has no issue with the prong as a tool.  

That's exactly why I posted, "This has been the most effective way to stop pulling and jumping for us." Notice I said us. I defiantly agree that a tool is only as good as the hands it is in. I know that prongs aren't for everyone and every dog. I'm not trying to promote them, I feel like I've just been defending why I use them.

For only talking about yourself you are using very generalized statements, such as:

"Also, if used properly, weight is proper, and placement is proper, they are not painful at all. I do not think you should make statements that make it sound like people who are using the prong collar are using "inhumane" techniques and inflicting "A LOT of pain" on their dog- because we're not."

This statement is not necessarily true.  They can be painful for many dogs, *especially* when used "properly," according to the "put it right under the ears" school of thought.  The prong can be a valuable tool and definitely has its place, but its very real potential to inflict pain should not be ignored or glossed over, IMHO.  

glenmar

Honestly?  I'd rather see a dog wearing a properly fitted, properly placed prong then a choker.  The choker is VERY likely to cause some serious damage.

Absolutely.  There was actually a study done comparing the prong and the choke: http://www.cobankopegi.com/prong.html#AStudy  

I just came on and read a couple of pages and then realized that this thread ran for 9 pages – wow.  I would like to state a response but apologize if my opinion has already been voiced. 

I have not used a prong collar and most likely will never use one. But one should never say never.  This is my thought process on the use of tools such as collars/harnesses/haltis when dealing with our pet companions:  I look at all of these devices (for collars I include flat collars, chokes, prongs, martingales) as a way for us to control our dogs in a human world.  If used incorrectly or forcefully, I think all of these tools can hurt our dogs although some tools may cause less harm than others.   It seems like most of this discussion if based on comfortably walking your dog so my comments are mostly on this.

I adopted my 1^st pet companion almost 7 years ago.  Patrick (GSD X) and I did not begin any training right away as I did not understand the importance of training.  He was over 3 before we began our training together so he not only started training with the baggage I had put on him but the baggage he had collected in his previous home were it appears he was given very little socialization with the outside world.   Patrick had issues with fear aggression, reactivity and excitability which only intensified while I did nothing about them.  When we did finally begin training I realized that it was important that I had “control” over Patrick because of his temperament.  Patrick was a puller due to his excitable nature (oh boy a walk woo wee).  I had a few black eyes and twisted ankles as a result of his pulling towards “what ever”.  They didn’t have harnesses 5 years ago so my options were a halti, or variety of collars.  I felt that if  I used a halti or a pinch collar or a chock collar that I would probably get quick results but the real problem would be masked.  The problem was that Patrick and I didn’t know how to have a mutually agreeable relationship when walking.  So I decided to stick to his flat collar and have patience, patience, patience and to use food as a reward for good behavior.  It took me 4 months to get Patrick to do a good sit, stay at the door while the door was being opened and then stay while the door was open.  It took that long for him not to pull me down the drive way.  Some times our walk ended at the end of the driveway – sometimes we made it to the end of the block.  Once, I got him to not pull me out the door and we actually got out of the block we lived on, I had to teach him to keep the leash loose. I used positive reinforcement and his reinforcement was food.  We did a lot of change directions, stand like a tree, walk really slow then pick up the pace.  I also taught him to sit and stay as sometimes that was the only way to let another person and dog walk past us.  That probably took me another 2 month.   I know a lot of people are not willing to work 6 months to get a good walking partner but that is what I choose.  Now Patrick and I both enjoy our walks without the use of food (the food was phased out pretty quickly).  Patrick walks in front of me on a loose leash – I am not concerned about a heel.  He just needs to come back to me and walk close to me when I see something like a loose dog, we have to go past people on the street, I see a squirrel, rabbit etc.  I am not going to say that Patrick doesn’t pull ever but when I ask him to “slow” or come “here” to slacken the leash, he pretty much “obeys”.  Even though I am in control of the walk (so I guess the relationship is based on my needs 1^st), I believe Patrick enjoys the walk as we mostly walk at his pace (stop to sniff, walk a little bit faster, stop and sniff).

sillysally

Absolutely.  There was actually a study done comparing the prong and the choke: http://www.cobankopegi.com/prong.html#AStudy  

I have heard about this supposed study for years.  I don't suppose that anyone can provide a link to the original work instead of what people have just passed around for years.