Leash Corrections? When and for how long?

corvus

Some people haven't done it before because they haven't needed to. I think that's a valid answer to the question and is not misinformation..

But Corvus that is not the information I am looking for?  I am curious to who is using or has used and to what extent.  Start another thread about who didn't use them because they didn't have to. Sorry you find it relevant to this thread but I don't,  I am looking for people who do use it, did use it, for what training purpose and for how long,  

I take my Danes to formal obedience training class and the method used is reward and correction.  So I have used corrections, leash pop from a choker if the dog would not respond to the command.   The procedure used was command, show the dog what you want by touch, affection.  Repeated.  Then command, if no response-leash pop, then show the dog what you want, affection.  Repeat.  Then command, if dog responds-affection.  This was quite effective and the dogs would get it by the end of the class session.  Ten years later they still have the commands.  I don't know a training method that solely uses corrections.   There seems to be always an alternative that is presented to the dog. 

I to always used some type of positive to reiforce the command.  What I think I hear from some people is that this type of training, leash corrections, is something that is ongoing.  I am wondering how long did you need to use this method before it wasn't needed any more?

Once a behavior is stopped then the method isn't needed anymore. Those behaviors are few in my house so this method comes and goes quickly.

1.  For what behaviors would you use leash corrections as a training method to solve a problem or teach a dog?

I think leash corrections are more for temporarily stopping the behavior, but I've also used them to get a dog's attention to correct them if they don't respond to a command that I know they know.  I used a prong on Rafe for the simple fact that he was CRAZY on the leash, and obviously hadn't had any initial training at all.  At 6 months, I needed a tool to use where I could have some control over him, and that was the best thing I could think of for me at the time.  It didn't necessarily fix the problem, but it did make walks much easier WITH the prong.  The next step was to teach him to walk nicely without it.  As far as corrections for things he already knows (such as a sit, etc., that he's known and responded to forever), I just give him a pop (with a round cloth slip collar) to get his brain in gear.  This is usually when something is going on/he's excited, so I just have to remind him of what's going on and to pay attention.

2.  And for how long would you continue before you found it ineffective?

Like someone said earlier, corrections should really be instant or they're probably not too effective.  I'd say three times is the maximum amount I'd use a correction without results. 

 I'm not necessarily FOR corrections, just saying what I've done.  I think that most behaviors that you need corrections for can be prevented, but that is kind of difficult to do if you just get a dog from a shelter. 

1.  For what behaviors would you use leash corrections as a training method to solve a problem or teach a dog?

I have used aversives, certainly rarely - but not usually in training.  I'm more likely to use them to stop a doggy tiff that has gotten a bit out of hand, and the aversives might include such things as making noise, shaking a penny can, squirting with water, etc.   I, like Kim, am more inclined to ask myself what do I want my dog to do, rather than what do I want my dog to stop doing, so even when there's a tiff, I might try "leave it - come" before the noisemaking, etc.  With my dogs, that nearly always works to separate them from their inappropriate little squabbles.  With other dogs, sometimes not, depending on how well trained they are and how serious the tiff is.

2.  And for how long would you continue before you found it ineffective?  Not long.  A punishment that does not stop behavior is not a punishment, and may, indeed, be a reinforcer.  Example: Dogs starts to bark.  Owner yells "shut up".  Dog thinks owner is barking, too.  Dog continues to bark - it's a duet, after all.

For what behaviors would you use leash corrections as a training method to solve a problem or teach a dog?

To stop pulling on the leash. To stop from jump up on people. Also, to stop barking at cars through the window, but that only took 2 corrections and he never did it again.

And for how long would you continue before you found it ineffective?

I give an instant correction once. Thats it. A good, firm, assertive, correction is all that is needed. NOT a frustrated, angry, harsh, correction (I know how words can get twisted around on this forum).  It did take about 2-3 months of consitant training for the leash to be mentalty attatched to him, now loose leash walks are fine and no jumping on guests.

spiritdogs

1.  For what behaviors would you use leash corrections as a training method to solve a problem or teach a dog?

I have used aversives, certainly rarely - but not usually in training.  I'm more likely to use them to stop a doggy tiff that has gotten a bit out of hand, and the aversives might include such things as making noise, shaking a penny can, squirting with water, etc.   I, like Kim, am more inclined to ask myself what do I want my dog to do, rather than what do I want my dog to stop doing, so even when there's a tiff, I might try "leave it - come" before the noisemaking, etc.  With my dogs, that nearly always works to separate them from their inappropriate little squabbles.  With other dogs, sometimes not, depending on how well trained they are and how serious the tiff is.

2.  And for how long would you continue before you found it ineffective?  Not long.  A punishment that does not stop behavior is not a punishment, and may, indeed, be a reinforcer.  Example: Dogs starts to bark.  Owner yells "shut up".  Dog thinks owner is barking, too.  Dog continues to bark - it's a duet, after all.

Off topic, this is about LEASH corrections
 

espencer

Off topic, this is about LEASH corrections
 

Um, no.  Read the original post: "It doesn't have to be leash corrections any aversive method you used would be interesting." and from the OP "I think for the subject of this post a correction would be anything you find aversive."

espencer

NOTE: for dogs AND owners that never worked with corrections before, its pretty sure that it wont work for you if you dont have supervision, so it wont be the fact that corrections are ineffective, is that you simply dont have the skills, if it is a hit to your ego, well, thats life, but i dont play professional baseball for a reason, there are other techniques (not naming any on specific) out there that i consider "dumb-proof" (but i'm not saying anybody here is dumb) that will be safer for you and your dog

I do I have the leash skills but I CHOSE to use better more humane methods.   My timing and being ultra aware of the leash was first honed by training horses for bloody near 40 yrs.  And if I CHOSE to I can sit a 1200 lb horse on its @ss, let a lone of dog of any size.  I CHOSE not too, but to find better methods to train them better.  I always had excellent results by training with rewards and with some very problem horses, dogs are so much easier.

No not just leash corrections any aversive technique, but leash corrections were my main focus.   I

espencer

spiritdogs

1.  For what behaviors would you use leash corrections as a training method to solve a problem or teach a dog?

I have used aversives, certainly rarely - but not usually in training.  I'm more likely to use them to stop a doggy tiff that has gotten a bit out of hand, and the aversives might include such things as making noise, shaking a penny can, squirting with water, etc.   I, like Kim, am more inclined to ask myself what do I want my dog to do, rather than what do I want my dog to stop doing, so even when there's a tiff, I might try "leave it - come" before the noisemaking, etc.  With my dogs, that nearly always works to separate them from their inappropriate little squabbles.  With other dogs, sometimes not, depending on how well trained they are and how serious the tiff is.

2.  And for how long would you continue before you found it ineffective?  Not long.  A punishment that does not stop behavior is not a punishment, and may, indeed, be a reinforcer.  Example: Dogs starts to bark.  Owner yells "shut up".  Dog thinks owner is barking, too.  Dog continues to bark - it's a duet, after all.

 

Off topic, this is about LEASH corrections
 

espencer

spiritdogs

1.  For what behaviors would you use leash corrections as a training method to solve a problem or teach a dog?

I have used aversives, certainly rarely - but not usually in training.  I'm more likely to use them to stop a doggy tiff that has gotten a bit out of hand, and the aversives might include such things as making noise, shaking a penny can, squirting with water, etc.   I, like Kim, am more inclined to ask myself what do I want my dog to do, rather than what do I want my dog to stop doing, so even when there's a tiff, I might try "leave it - come" before the noisemaking, etc.  With my dogs, that nearly always works to separate them from their inappropriate little squabbles.  With other dogs, sometimes not, depending on how well trained they are and how serious the tiff is.

2.  And for how long would you continue before you found it ineffective?  Not long.  A punishment that does not stop behavior is not a punishment, and may, indeed, be a reinforcer.  Example: Dogs starts to bark.  Owner yells "shut up".  Dog thinks owner is barking, too.  Dog continues to bark - it's a duet, after all.

 

Off topic, this is about LEASH corrections
 

Yet again, you have no idea what you are talking about.  This is from the original post:

It doesn't have to be leash corrections any aversive method you used would be interesting.

Edited to add: last time I looked, you were not a moderator.  If anyone is so seriously off topic that it's worthy of a "correction", perhaps you could leave that to a mod in the future, so you won't be left with egg on your face.

luvmyswissy

I to always used some type of positive to reiforce the command.  What I think I hear from some people is that this type of training, leash corrections, is something that is ongoing.  I am wondering how long did you need to use this method before it wasn't needed any more?

Recalling from my experience with my residence dogs and my foster dogs, I find the opposite to be true.  With a command-touch-correction-affection method, the results are within 2 to 4 repeats, depending on the complexity of obedience behavior.  I also experienced the understandability factor to be high so subsequent session are not needed.  This is one of the reasons why I says there is a beginning to training and then there is an end.  If a dog doesn't get one thing, the dog and I repeat all of the obedience behaviors, not just the one.  For my foster hound Marvin, prior to entering Petsmart for the foster dog showing, we go through the obedience routine.  This keeps him in a calm state throughout all that is happening during the event.  He is the most well behaved at these events.

Now as I said in the previous post, I used a combination of reward and aversives.   Dogs will construct behavior for pleasure and dogs will construct behavior to avoid displeasure.  Is "for pleasure" versus "avoid displeasure" the same in the dog with respect to learning faster?  I only know when I used only object rewards, the learning took longer.  With the affection reward method only, the learning takes even longer.  But with eliminating aversions and using the most gentliest training method (affection),  the relationship does benefit.

I'll be the bad guy.

After Ivan proved himself dangerous to Sasha, we worked with a trainer suggested by our vet. This trainer's opinion was that due to Ivan's instability, he needed to be contained or under voice command 24/7. Ignoring commands was not ok, and it was not safe. I believe he was right.

Ivan was very capable of being "willfully disobedient." Yes, that is aka under motivated. We had done everything we could *to* motivate him.

So, under the guidance of the trainer, we administered corrections when Ivan refused to obey a command that he knew. Corrections were given with a prong collar, yes. They were hard corrections, meant to be aversive and not nagging. They were very effective. The first few corrections were administered by the trainer, and Ivan did try and turn on him. The second correction changed his mind. I do not have the skill to do what the trainer did. I would have been bitten.

Giving corrections was hard for me. At that point, it was use corrections or PTS. Eventually we did put him down, a year and a half later. Corrections made him manageable, but they didn't make him safe, and there wasn't much room for human error. He would have bitten us, perhaps even killed us, had we not been careful. I believed this before we ever used any corrections.

I don't know how I feel about using corrections with dogs who don't have the mental problems that Ivan did. I prefer to use other more positive techniques.  I don't have a problem with milder nagging corrections. I think they are "lazy" but so is Ian Dunbar's use of the GL. Most people have corners they cut.

luvmyswissy

1.  For what behaviors would you use leash corrections as a training method to solve a problem or teach a dog?

depends on your definition of leash corrections. I do use very subtle leash pops when teaching heel, they are not real noticible and are followed up by praise and excitement so the dog is focused on me I do not consider these corrections but some might, since many seem to think any pressure on the leash at all is a correction.

I only use actual corrections for behavior such as lunging at another dog or cat or something else where the dog knows what is required and what is allowed and decides to go after something anyway. I prefer self correcting collars for large dogs (prongs). I cannot recall the last time I used a hard correction or what some would refer to as yank and crank although I am not opposed to administering one should the situation call for it. To me situations that would call for it would be an attempt by my dog to attack or appear to attack something, for that I would set him on his butt.

luvmyswissy

2.  And for how long would you continue before you found it ineffective?

 Any time a paticular method of teaching does not seem to be working and no progress is being made one should look for some other method of teaching. So I would not continue using any technique if the dog was not responding and learning from it. That is common sense to me.

To me the most important part of any correction is timing and this is where most people make mistakes at, a leash correction is of no value at all if not applied at exactly the moment it should be applied, it should be quick and as subtle as possible to accomplish what you want which is to divert the dog's attention back to what ever he should be doing.

Ado

I do I have the leash skills but I CHOSE to use better more humane methods.   My timing and being ultra aware of the leash was first honed by training horses for bloody near 40 yrs.  And if I CHOSE to I can sit a 1200 lb horse on its @ss, let a lone of dog of any size.  I CHOSE not too, but to find better methods to train them better.  I always had excellent results by training with rewards and with some very problem horses, dogs are so much easier.

Well:

luvmyswissy

that is not the information I am looking for  I am curious to who is using or has used and to what extent.  Start another thread about who didn't use them because they didn't have to. Sorry you find it relevant to this thread but I don't,  I am looking for people who do use it, did use it, for what training purpose and for how long

This is not moderating, i'm just re-quoting 

spiritdogs

Yet again, you have no idea what you are talking about.

I use leash corrections, as well as verbal corrections and body language corrections. For leash corrections, i use a pop and release with a prong collar on Ares and Nyx I use a fur saver or a prong collar on Tyr, and I use a check choke on Morgan. I also have used ecollars for corrections, but it's rare.

I use corrections for anything from basic obedience - after the behavior is learned, things like breaking a stay or proofing, or the dog has a moment of "I don't want to" - to misbehaviors that are potentially dangerous ~ jumping, biting, pulling.

I generally see an improvement in behavior after the first correction, but occasionally I don't. Often I find it's because my body language is conflicting with the correction - like Nyx tonight was being difficult and I was sitting at the computer trying to work. I gave her a correction, and she challenged it. Well, I was sitting down. As soon as I stood up to correct her, she complied.

I do continue to use corrections throughout their life. I also continue to use positive reinforcement throughout their life. If they know something is correct, but I stop rewarding it, they'll eventually stop doing it. Also, if they know something is undesirable, but thet do it anyway and I don't correct for it, it allows them to do it. I don't always need to give corrections, but I am always prepared to if the need arises.