Leash Corrections? When and for how long?

I prefer self-correcting devices.  I don't jerk corrections myself, but I think they still count as "aversive".

Coke came to us with NO manners, he'd lived on a tie-out and was not given proper attention.  So he was a MAJOR puller.  We've had great success using an Easy Walk harness.  We use that in combination with constant training.  Right now he is in a CGC class so there's a lot of focus on the dog paying attention and loose leash walking.  We are still in the process of introducing new distractions. 

For Kenya, the only corrections I've needed to use was I used a prong for about two weeks to go from nice loose leash walking to a very formal heel with eye contact.  It worked very well and I haven't used it in two months.  Now all of our training at home and in class is done off-lead anyway. 

For Kenya's behaviors that I didn't like, I put them on cue rather than correcting them because she is a soft dog.  She now jumps "up" on my chest on command and spins left and right on command.  If I were to give her a leash pop or push her off me when she jumps, she will get upset and hide.  If I say "NO!" and try to verbally stop her, she pees or rolls and shows her belly.  I'm not looking for that sort of submission.  Luckily, I am the only person she jumps on or spins for, so I work on it at our own pace.  She has never jumped on a stranger or even my husband.

Coke's main problem behavior was chasing cats.  I use a squirt bottle for that and I also reward and praise heavily any time I catch him staying still while near a cat.  The squirt bottle is more effective for us than a leash correction b/c I can see him stalking a cat on the other side of the room and give him a little squirt right at that moment, rather than having to get up and verbally or physically correct him.  If he is chasing the cats all over, he has a few minutes time out in his crate to calm down.

For any correction/aversive method, I would expect almost immediate results.  If I didn't see some improvement in one or two sessions of trying that method, I'd move on to something else.  For example, if I walked Coke once a day for three days on our three mile walk and he was still pulling and lunging on the Easy Walk, I'd try something else. 

Every dog is different and every level of fixation its different too, some will need more than others but if you are doing it right you would see a tiny difference on the behavior in the 2nd or 3rd try, if you did it already 6 times and you did not see any difference you should move on to try another thing since probably even if you do it 100 times you wont change anything

NOTE: for dogs AND owners that never worked with corrections before, its pretty sure that it wont work for you if you dont have supervision, so it wont be the fact that corrections are ineffective, is that you simply dont have the skills, if it is a hit to your ego, well, thats life, but i dont play professional baseball for a reason, there are other techniques (not naming any on specific) out there that i consider "dumb-proof" (but i'm not saying anybody here is dumb) that will be safer for you and your dog

luvmyswissy

1.  For what behaviors would you use leash corrections as a training method to solve a problem or teach a dog?

None that I can think of.  I have issued leash corrections but looking back, I don't believe they solved anything or taught anything.  For everything that I want to teach and for every problem that may arise I can think of a different solution which I would prefer to use - and which I think would be both easier on the dog and more reliable long term.

luvmyswissy

2.  And for how long would you continue before you found it ineffective?

A moot point considering my answer to #1, but when I did use them (and if ever I decided to in future) then if it didn't work after one or two applications I would consider it ineffective.  I would not increase the level of correction to the dog.  I might move away from whatever was causing his excitement for example, so that he is a more fit state of mind to learn.  If the dog went ahead and did it again tomorrow I would repeat the procedure, but if I wasn't seeing drastic improvements within a few days/sessions I would ditch it and try something else.  I don't LIKE leash corrections, therefore I would want to offer as few as possible and for as little time as possible.

I HAVE (and likely will again) tugged gently on the lead when I have needed to get the dog's attention and they weren't responding to their name.  I liken this to a gentle tap on the shoulder, NOT a correction/aversive/punishment.  I don't use it to stop the dog from what he is doing or punish him for not responding. I am just reminding him that I am here.  Should a gentle tug not work, then we have to move away from that situation and try again when he is willing and able to listen to me.

Well I am not too keen on the WORD correction itself, since we could, in theory all be talking about something totally different.  A correction could be an interruptor, a redirection, an aversive that is not very harsh but which the dog still wants to avoid or all out abuse and a hundred and one things in between.

For the purposes of this post I have assumed that we're all on the same page and we're all talking about No.3 (an aversive which is not extremely harsh but which the dog still wants to avoid).

I think for the subject of this post a correction would be anything you find aversive.  Although leash corrections are the target for the subject.  I believe that once a poster explains what they did, why and for how long that will determine what their definition of "correction" or "aversive" will mean. Everyone has there own measurement and definition the words differently and I would like it left that way. 

I don't use leash corrections because I don't have the "skills" and my ego is better soothed by using the "dummy-proof" method. You see, it's all about me.

The day I got Shadow, I only had his flat collar and leash and it was night when we brought him home. The very next day, I got him a walking harness (I-back or barrel style). And have walked and trained him in harness or off-leash, since then. So, logistically, I wasn't able to administer leash pops or leash corrections, though I could lift him off the ground in harness with one arm, if necessary. That would explain why I don't have the skills to leash pop. That, and my fragile ego.

But I used to scruff and pin. And body block. I've scruffed and pinned probably 6 times in a row and he finally quit jumping on the guests because I think he got tired from all this wrestling and play. But, I didn't know what I was doing even though I thought I did. I used that technique, decreasing in frequency, for two years. By the fall of 2006, I hardly used it at all. I haven't used it once, since then.

Body blocking took less time for me to drop as a tool. I was only another obstacle to get around.

If the technique is not working, then it is not stopping the behavior. If the behavior finally stops or changes to avoid whatever aversive, then that is -R, which means the dog learns or changes in reinforcement mode. And I'd just as soon get to the reinforcement quicker. It inflates my sensitive ego, making me look really good.

The one thing I can do that is actually punishing is a particular tone in my voice, which I used to use when cursing other drivers in traffic. And rather than use it like a new hammer on every nail I can see, I watch my tone and attitude. Punishment, if executed properly, is a powerful thing. And my lack of skills means I won't always know what I am punishing or be able to foresee in the future another behavior that gets linked to that which I had not planned on.

But, I was kidding earlier. It's not about me. It's about the dog. Always.

 If I use an aversive, it would be one mild enough that it doesn't rule out that behaviour in the future. This probably comes from working with the hare, who you have to be really careful with because he's so flighty. If I did something to him bad enough to stop the behaviour in a few appllications, his trust in me would diminish. So I use him as the conservative base line just in case some other animal I have to work with is as touchy as he is. I'm happy to largely manage the problem and offer happy alternatives for whatever drive is causing the problem.

Because the aversive I might use is so mild, I would keep using it, possibly forever, as it doesn't do much to stop the behaviour I don't want. I'm cool with that because I try to stick to an aversive that doesn't raise the stress level in the animal very much at all. Again, Kit is my baseline because I doubt I'm ever going to have an animal more touchy than him.  

Chuffy

I HAVE (and likely will again) tugged gently on the lead when I have needed to get the dog's attention and they weren't responding to their name.  I liken this to a gentle tap on the shoulder, NOT a correction/aversive/punishment.  I don't use it to stop the dog from what he is doing or punish him for not responding. I am just reminding him that I am here.  Should a gentle tug not work, then we have to move away from that situation and try again when he is willing and able to listen to me.

Thats EXACTLY what a leash correction is, i dont think ANYONE here have done it any different than you 

luvmyswissy

1.  For what behaviors would you use leash corrections as a training method to solve a problem or teach a dog?

None.

luvmyswissy

2.  And for how long would you continue before you found it ineffective?

Like Chuffy, due to my above answer, this is really not applicable.

Given the number of things we teach our dogs every day, it would be impossible to go through every one, so I'm not sure I even want to try answering this question. But punishment is reserved only for specific situations and only after an alternate behaviour is understood. And punishment is never ever used without the use of a R+ immediately after by setting the dog up to succeed.

If an issue arises, my thoughts go to "What do I want my dog to do in this situation?", rather than "How can I stop this behaviour?". This simple difference in questioning allows me to think more in terms of ways I can get my dog to do as I ask and have fun doing it, rather than ways to make doing what the dog wants less fun or aversive. And almost all of my punishments are in the form of P-, occasionally I'll use spatial pressure in the form of R-. And I have used conditioned punishers (conditioned to a P-) - there is argument as to whether they are considered information or P+, as I have explained before I consider them information.

I choose not to use physical punishments, via a hand or leash or type of collar, not because they are ineffective (although they sometimes are for some dogs), but simply because they are not required, as I have been able to demonstrate with any behaviour I needed to change. Why grab a hammer when you can use a feather? Some people may be drawn to the hammer, I am not. I think it should be the goal of any person truly invested in improving the life of dogs, or simply sharing life with dogs, to continuously search for the least invasive means to change behaviour, and that which causes the least amount of fallout. That is what I strive to do, so I have no need for some of the things some people choose to use so routinely.

I know that many of you need to state why you wouldn't, shouldn't or haven't used corrections or aversive training. 

However, I would like this thread to have only those who have used corrections or adversive techniques, or would use them.  I'm interested to see how many people actually do use them and for what reasons?  I am curious if it is a short term tool or long term training tool, if it is a default training or not.  I already know why people don't use them.

1.  WHAT TYPE?

2.  FOR WHAT or WHY?

3.  AND FOR HOW LONG?

Yes.

All the time.

Forever.

   Sorry.  Feeling snarky after a walk with the boys who were just a pain the whole way.  Not their fault, they've been on ordered rest and restricted activity for forever and life was much easier when I could take them (especially Woobie) to the dog park, let him run like a crazy fiend for 30 minutes and then do nice walking.  But that's not to be for a while, so they both behave like they're trying to run the Iditarod!   If I had guts and no regard for my physical safety, I'd strap on roller blades ala CM and let them fly me around the neighborhood. 

When I was sane and they were not restricted, I did use leash corrections on Woobie to try to teach loose leash walking.  It worked intermittently but not really that well unless it's with the pinch collar.  I didn't know it shouldn't be used for corrections since that's what our trainer taught (moving to a new place) so now, I'm trying to let the collar do the work with no intervention from me.  I was also  taught by this trainer to give a command such as Sit and then if he didn't sit within like 3 seconds, to give a correction and repeat the command.  That didn't work that great either and although I really want to do 100% positive reinforcement training, Woobie is a stubborn stinker and pretty fearful.  It makes him very hard to motivate and reinforce outside of our house (his safety zone) because he won't take food, has difficulty focusing on me, (super duper crack addict level hyperawareness) etc. 

I've used leash corrections in the past to train my terrier not to eat the cat and not to jump on kids, so I think they have their place, I just don't think with my 2 current dogs they're the best alternative.  Loose leash walking is our biggest challenge.  Separately, they both do very well, but together, it's a pain. 

luvmyswissy

I know that many of you need to state why you wouldn't, shouldn't or haven't used corrections or aversive training. 

However, I would like this thread to have only those who have used corrections or adversive techniques, or would use them. 

Oh, I thought I was answering the question! Any punishment that has to do with humans has some level of aversiveness to it, as that's why it changes behaviour. Even when I use P-, it still must have some relevance to the dog (it can't go outside and it wanted to, it loses attention when it wanted it, etc), so it certainly has some level of aversiveness in it.

So I've covered what type I think. :-) P-, little bit of R- in spatial pressure, and CP's as information.

The for what or why is too broad really. And for every dog it will be different. I'll try to use an example here though....

Shimmer really likes to use her paw to ask for attention. I started with simple P-, removing attention. It worked so-so, but she wasn't really grasping the point as much as I'd like her to have, as the pawing in itself was quite reinforcing for her. So I began teaching a conditioned punisher - a cue - to mark the behaviour I didn't like. It was paired with the P-. That actually increased her stress level and she found it very aversive, even though all I did was add a word with the same punishment. It didn't really change the target behaviour, though, even though she found it quite aversive. So I dropped it immediately and went back to my old question - "what is it that I want? Then teach it!", and have since switched to ignoring the pawing (an extinction procedure), and then using heavy reinforcement for "proper attention seeking" - a sit (a DRI procedure), and it's working much better. The end is still out there, but I think this is what will fix the issue.  It's going well so far.

As for the how long? I tried P- on its own for about a week, and it was working but slower than I had expected. So then I used the CP, and only used it for two days (the first day she made the association, the second day I tried it and discarded it within the same night) because she found it very aversive. But the extinction/reward procedure (not true extinction, as I'm rewarding afterwards, for quicker communication) is working much faster, and better, than the P- procedure was.

For a lot of jumping dogs, especially in the boarding kennel when you work with dogs of all histories,  I have used P- (removal of attention, walking away, or social snubbing by walking to another room/leaving the play yard, depending on the "offender";) and it usually worked within three or four tries. It was actually quite amazing how quickly it worked for a jumping dog. I've never needed to do much else, or drop it and try something else, as it worked pretty much every time!

luvmyswissy

I would like this thread to have only those who have used corrections or adversive techniques

I think this part should have an emphasis to avoid this thread turning ugly and offer a lot of misinformation from those who have never done it before  

luvmyswissy

1.  For what behaviors would you use leash corrections as a training method to solve a problem or teach a dog?

2.  And for how long would you continue before you found it ineffective?

I take my Danes to formal obedience training class and the method used is reward and correction.  So I have used corrections, leash pop from a choker if the dog would not respond to the command.   The procedure used was command, show the dog what you want by touch, affection.  Repeated.  Then command, if no response-leash pop, then show the dog what you want, affection.  Repeat.  Then command, if dog responds-affection.  This was quite effective and the dogs would get it by the end of the class session.  Ten years later they still have the commands.  I don't know a training method that solely uses corrections.   There seems to be always an alternative that is presented to the dog. 

The above was for teaching basic obedience.  For a behavior issue such as snarling at another dog, I would use corrections for a short term resolve and to keep the dogs safe.  Pulling the dog back followed by a scolding is what I do while in the unexpected situation.  I don't expect the behavior to be fixed by this action but changed for that moment.  The dog is more alert of the unwanted behavior and consequences but for only in that situaiton.   A more formal approach in a control setting would mostly resolve the issue.

I understand what Espence is saying about having experience and know how when applying corrections.  At the foster dog showings, we have one individual that takes over some of the foster dogs and tries to work through their behavior issue.  Most of the dog's issue is socialization, that is getting along with other dogs or not being afraid of other dogs.  She uses only corrections, leash pops and pull back.  Anyone that knows anything about corrections knows that is has to be consistently applied and in the same measure.  There is no way that that women can accomplish this because in the end, the dog is turned over to the foster family.  This is why trainers teach the owners (via verbal instructions) and the owners apply the corrections.