Training "dominance" away...

Well, I train my "family members" in a similar way to how I train the dogs.  I try to focus on the things I like, not the things I don't like.  I try not to nag and I try to set them up for success as much as I can.

It's not nice to think of having to "sacrifice" a dog for the sake of the rest of the family, but if one developed an issue and I thought they posed a serious danger to my kid(s)?  Sure, they'd go.  If we fell on hard times and I couldn't afford to keep them any longer, well if it's a choice between feeding your family or keeping your dog, well it's a tough decision and even dedicated owners here have had to make it. 

I wonder, how do you think I behave toward my dogs because of this attitude? 

Chuffy

It's not nice to think of having to "sacrifice" a dog for the sake of the rest of the family, but if one developed an issue and I thought they posed a serious danger to my kid(s)?  Sure, they'd go. 

This is an issue that families of special needs kids sometimes face. It isn't as casual as "they have to go," but sometimes a violent and impaired child is placed in a program in order to keep the rest of the family safe. It is a terrible decision to have to make.

I agree, Mudpuppy, that semantics matter - but -  the same word does have the same meaning for all people. The word leader has specific meaning for you, but a different meaning for other people.

In day to day life, I view my leadership as someone who sets the example. If the dog sees something scary, he's going to take his cues from the leader. If the leader is confident, that confidence gets passed on to the dog.

do people actually believe this?  I don't. I don't believe dogs think that way. I've never noticed that the owner's attitude had much effect on the dog's confidence, fears, or lack thereof, or that dogs follow the example of people, or even the example of other dogs.

Good grief.  I have a dog that has never been particularly friendly with other dogs since puppyhood.  He's loads better now, but you can guarantee, if I get tense when we're out walking, it'll go down the lead to the dog and he'll act up.  If I make myself calm, keep my breathing slow, my voice steady and the lead loose he is MUCH more successful. 
 

mudpuppy

In day to day life, I view my leadership as someone who sets the example. If the dog sees something scary, he's going to take his cues from the leader. If the leader is confident, that confidence gets passed on to the dog.

do people actually believe this?  I don't. I don't believe dogs think that way. I've never noticed that the owner's attitude had much effect on the dog's confidence, fears, or lack thereof, or that dogs follow the example of people, or even the example of other dogs.

I am halfway in the middle. 

I agree that some people put too much stake in assuming the dog really cares how the leader feels or what the leader is doing, but I do believe that the leader's (or owner, if that's a better term) reaction to a dog's fears is important.  I think it just so happens that a lot of times, the dog and the person are afraid of the same thing, even if the fear is independent from each other, and because the person is afraid, s/he tries to legitimize the fear of the dog and thus ends up coddling the dog...reinforcing the dog's fear.  For example, say there's a little dog that's afraid of a big dog and the little dog's owner is also afraid of the big dog.  So when the big dog approaches, the little dog starts backing up, snapping, and doing fearful behaviors while the owner picks up the little dog and pets him or gives him lots of attention like "ooo I know that big dawg is scary huh!?"  So, in a sense, the "leadership" (or lack thereof) of the owner indirectly reinforced the fearful behavior of the little dog.

I am not afraid of the same things that Kenya is afraid of, but her fear responses themselves are what make me nervous ("oh no, what if she air snaps and someone thinks she's trying to attack?"  "what if she tries to bolt and someone makes a grab at her?"...).  It was really important for me to learn what the responses were and how to deal with it.  I know if I had not done that with a good trainer, I likely would have corrected warnings inappropriately and/or reinforced her fearful responses by trying to calm her in order to calm myself. 

On the other hand, I do not believe that dealing with her confidence has much to do with her observing my own confidence.  Her confidence had to be built with games and positive activities, things *I* had to try REALLY hard at, not just lead by being confident in my own activities.

So I do think that the owners are responsible for a dog's confidence and fear/lack of fear, but not simply by setting an example. 

Liesje

I agree that some people put too much stake in assuming the dog really cares how the leader feels or what the leader is doing,

Perhaps not, but if you spend time with a stress-head don't you start feeling a little bit frazzled yourself?  Isn't it easier to concentrate and focus and stay calm when you are with someone who is calm?

Here we go, my driving lessons again.  I'm only just think about it now, and I am only able to now I have a new instructor to compare against.  The new one is much more relaxed than the old one and I find I am too.  I DO think the fact he is so laid back is helping me a ton with my confidence.  That's not because I respect him as my leader, it's not because I accpet he has authority over me and I look to him for guidance.  I just know that, if there's an emergency he's got it covered, he's cool headed and competent and he'll help me past it and it'll be OK.  *shrugs*  I LIKE that in other people and maybe I'm stupid to believe that other people - and just maybe my dogs - might like it in me too?

Chuffy

Liesje

I agree that some people put too much stake in assuming the dog really cares how the leader feels or what the leader is doing,

 

Perhaps not, but if you spend time with a stress-head don't you start feeling a little bit frazzled yourself?  Isn't it easier to concentrate and focus and stay calm when you are with someone who is calm?

Hehe it's hard for me to answer because I am that person!!  Kenya is also a very high-strung dog, always going going going and won't really relax unless she is actually sleeping.  It's like she needs to be told what to do all the time, but now that I have a better handle on her fears, we work really well together because we are very similar.  I cannot say whether we actually rub off on each other or if I was drawn to a dog that is like me.

Honestly I don't think there's anything wrong with the quoted statement: In day to day life, I view my leadership as someone who sets the example. If the dog sees something scary, he's going to take his cues from the leader. If the leader is confident, that confidence gets passed on to the dog.

However, I just happen to put more stress on actively building a relationship with the dog and spending as much time reinforcing what I want than focusing on more abstract things like being confident and leading by example.  That's just how I am though.  I like to see results, results that I can measure.

I do agree with leash tension impacting the dog, but for me the tension is more a fear of Kenya's reactions than an actual fear that I am transferring to the dog.  I guess that was my original point.  Kenya and I are afraid of entirely different things, so if she was picking up on my fears and my confidence, she would be confident when she is fearful and fearful when she is confident, yet she is not.  Does that make more sense?

It does make sense!  

I'm actually struggling to put my thoughts into words... I suppose it would be accurate to say: I'm not thinking "I have to act this way so the dog think I am leader" it's more "If I act THIS WAY it will impact positively on the dog" and THIS WAY (being calm, confident, consistent, communicating calmly, etc. etc.) is what I think of as things a good leader does.  Does THAT makes sense???

I also agree with the idea that you have to actively DO STUFF the dog likes to build confidence.  Have you seen me suggest to people to try clicker training, because it's a way of boosting confidence?  Doesn't a good employer organise social events, (work "dos";) team building days out etc. as well?  Is that not the same sort of thing?

I just now saw this thread so it took about 15 min to catch up. Everyone had some good thoughts.

I lead because I know where the good stuff is. Doing what I ask is never punishing, only rewarding. Am I manipulating my dog? You betcha. And I do it without yanking or kicking or wrestling to show my physical dominance or prowess.

Much of the article was, imo, a better articulated idea that most recently I remember in the non-linear dog theory. That each dog has their comfort zone, so to speak. That a group of dogs will define a colloquial language of signals. That a dog that snarls or even barks is not trying to establish dominance but is providing the boundaries of his/her own space.

And, like some here have noted, you can change resource guarding by training to show that they don't have to resource guard. There is a way to have the resources you want that involves the least amount of struggle or effort, which certainly fits in with dogs, who are opportunistic scavengers.

I think, too, that the article is meant to discourage the use of the word dominance for more than one reason. 1) it's inaccurate. What many have interpreted as dominance is not actually that. Ian Dunbar has also stated such things. 2) such a word implies, many times, a connotation to humans that might cause us to act or think wrongly.

I like your thinking Kim.  I  have always seen training as a way develop a language of communication with your dog.  It is the same thing as NILF (although I don't use it myself) a language for you and your dog to communicate in.  I also agree that it is always a give and take, I pay attention to what my dogs say and they pay attention to what I say, sometimes they follow me and sometimes I follow them.  I am the parental figure in the relationship.  I do like to think I have the final say in things, although if they were really unhappy with me they could run away.  I give them the opportunity to, but I don't think it will happen.  If I had human kids I would like to think I would treat them the same way (maybe with fewer treats though).

However, I do think there is more to dogs understanding each other than learned behavior.  Most dogs can tell a truely confident dog almost by sight.  Almost every dog could recognize my Dex (who was very calm and relaxed) as a confident dog the first time they met him.  It wasn't that they knew they could not piss him off, they did not try.  He would lay outside my shop and dogs who were aggressive with other dogs would just walk past him. 

dogs do tend to respond to very quiet, calm, confident people (and dogs) - but I don't think it's because they are confident, or leaders, it's because they don't send out thousands of confusing and conflicting cues. People who chatter, and move erratically, and over-react to things, and worry about work while dealing with the dog are just very confusing to the dog. Dogs "read" people really well. But it's the consistency they are looking for, not "leadership".

mudpuppy

But it's the consistency they are looking for, not "leadership".

I say I lead but how much of it is just consistency? Listening to me is always rewarding? That would be consistent. Knowing what his motivation is and working with that. Do I say that I lead because, at times, I am the one making the decisions and rewarding him for compliance? Left to his own devices, he can very well decide what he should be doing. There are times when I think it's better for all concerned if I decide what he should do. Is that leading? Or, a "paycheck"? He does what I ask because he can get rewarded. And reward is in the mind of the one being rewarded.

This morning, we caught a mouse in the house and Shadow was the one, out of all of us who got. Fair catch. And he gave it to me for some cold pork chop from the fridge. Later, on a walk, with some more of that pork chop with me, we past a spot that he likes because he can smell mouse scent in a hovel. He is digging and digging. Eventually, we move on. We later come back by the same spot and I call heel and he does and I give him two pieces of meat at once and he goes for the cook meat, instead of the live prey. As much fun as the live prey might be, in his mind, some cooked meat from me is the mother lode. Nothing can beat it, as far as he is concerned. And it's just a bit of meat. But to him, a price beyond rubies.

So, while I still tend to think I lead, I think I lead by being consistently the most rewarding thing to him.

Chuffy

I also agree with the idea that you have to actively DO STUFF the dog likes to build confidence.  Have you seen me suggest to people to try clicker training, because it's a way of boosting confidence?  Doesn't a good employer organise social events, (work "dos";) team building days out etc. as well?  Is that not the same sort of thing?

Exactly.  The problem I have with the concept of "dominance" is so often it seems like dog owners are blaming behaviors on "dominance" and then trying to "fix" or "correct" the dog when if they would just train and reinforce what they want in the first place, most of those so-called "dominant" behaviors would be extinct or never start to happen.  That's why I said I was somewhere in the middle of needing to lead by example and not buying any of it.  Yes, my reactions do affect my dogs, but at the same time I can't just be a calm, consistent, confident person and expect that to all rub off on the dogs.  I need to do that and active train the dogs what I want, maybe more so for developing a form of communication with the dog in general than setting black and white rules.  I like your work analogy because that is actually how my team at work functions.  If there is something one of us is not good at, we aren't forced to do it.  Instead, we have weekly meetings one-on-one with the boss where we discuss what we are good at and what we like to do and then put together ways we can be in charge of those things or get more training in those areas.  I try to approach training my dogs the same way.  I sit down (with the trainer) and develop a specific mental picture of what I ideally want and then we discuss how to get it by teaching the dog what to do rather than what not to do.

Liesje

The problem I have with the concept of "dominance" is so often it seems like dog owners are blaming behaviors on "dominance" and then trying to "fix" or "correct" the dog when if they would just train and reinforce what they want in the first place, most of those so-called "dominant" behaviors would be extinct or never start to happen. 

So very well put and right on the nailhead. And not just anonymous dog owners.

Its sort of like hitting yourself on the head with a rolled up newspaper when the dog potties inside. Dog displaying dominance? Buck up and be a better owner. That involves effort, training, and consistency, as well as proper exercise and mental stimulation.