Training "dominance" away...

Jeepers, guys, if the dramatic tones would get turned down a few notches, we might actually be able to get down to the actual ideas/theories and learn something here.  

spiritdogs

From what I understand, you tried the clicker and then gave up because your dogs were offering you behaviors - a clicker trainer's dream, but it scared you. 

What? "From what you understand"? What are you talking about? You must have me confused with someone else. Just last week, I wrote this and I KNOW you read it because you responded directly to it:

FourIsCompany

Many of you will be interested to discover that I did a little experiment this week with my dogs. Jaia has been leashed to me for over a week after his neuter (he was chryptorchid). Being bored out of his skull, I decided to do some clicker work to keep his mind busy. I also decided to experiment with Cara and Mia since they have never been clicker-trained at all and would be considered "crossover" dogs. They are 6 years old. I wish I had taped Cara's first session because she had it in about 3 tries and later sessions have had her offering NEW behaviors!!! Yes, I said NEW behaviors. Cara is "Operant"!

I have never said I was scared. That's ridiculous!  I have not "given up" anything, Just because I don't worship it and push it doesn't mean I'm afraid of it or have given it up. That's just such an assumptive and typical thing for you to say...

Cita

Jeepers, guys, if the dramatic tones would get turned down a few notches, we might actually be able to get down to the actual ideas/theories and learn something here.

Oh, no! We can't have that! Where would we get our drama fix? LOL  

What is it "CM" said on South Park... "I am not validating his behaviour with a response...." 

It's six and two threes. 

In a previous thread, (I don't recall the exact one) you had mentioned that you tried the clicker and didn't like what you thought was manic behavior on the part of your dogs, which most of us that use the clicker refer to as the dog being focused on working for a treat.

Then, more recently, you said you like using corrections and prefer them. So, from those two viewpoints, plus the endless series of apologetics in using corrections shying away from the moniker of even a closet clicker, it became easier to assume that you had an issue with the clicker and marker training in general.

I agree with others, everything is a behavior. Clickers are not just for "trick training". They are valuable in any kind of training, including K-9, field trial (at least close range until linked to a louder signal, such as a whistle or even a vibrating collar), SAR, off-leash obedience, etc.

Now, you remind us that you recently tried it again, just to show that your dogs weren't shut down by all the corrections. At the start, it seemed you tried to the clicker just so that you could say corrections were still a viable and necessary tool that did not negatively affect the other operant quadrants. Whether that was your intention or not.

I would hope that now that you've had some success with the clicker method, we might here more of that. Have you tried it for other behaviors related to house manners or leash manners? You might have a way that others have not thought of, yet.

What Ron said.  

ron2

In a previous thread, (I don't recall the exact one) you had mentioned that you tried the clicker and didn't like what you thought was manic behavior on the part of your dogs, which most of us that use the clicker refer to as the dog being focused on working for a treat.

Then, more recently, you said you like using corrections and prefer them.

I prefer using corrections to not using corrections, yes. I like to tell my dogs, "Don't do that, do this", instead of just telling them, "Do this". Corrections are information I pass onto the dog about what I want from him.

So, from those two viewpoints, plus the endless series of apologetics in using corrections shying away from the moniker of even a closet clicker, it became easier to assume that you had an issue with the clicker and marker training in general.

1.) I have no idea what you mean by "the endless series of apologetics in using corrections". I have never apologized for using corrections.

2.) I have never shied away from using a clicker. I have talked about it and posted the Jaia puppy video many times. More manufactured information. What I have shied away from is being called a "positive trainer", because I am not, as far as I'm concerned, and don't wish to be associated with the "movement".

So if you're using these 2 points to make your assumptions, it's clearly incorrect. I cannot help the assumptions you and others make, regardless how wrong you are.  

I agree with others, everything is a behavior. Clickers are not just for "trick training". They are valuable in any kind of training, including K-9, field trial (at least close range until linked to a louder signal, such as a whistle or even a vibrating collar), SAR, off-leash obedience, etc.

I agree with you. Spiridogs  purposefully "misunderstood" what I said and I'm sure George Bush would be proud of her. I have said that clickers are a valuable tool. I have nothing against clickers or behavior marking. I just don't think it's a necessary part of training or raising a well-behaved, happy dog. 

Now, you remind us that you recently tried it again, just to show that your dogs weren't shut down by all the corrections.

I recently worked with Jaia on clicker training because he was bored while recuperating from surgery and I wanted to exercise his mind. During that time, I also tried it on Cara and Mia to see (for myself) how they would react. And they did fine. They picked it right up. The results did show that they're not shut down, and I did post that here. Your point?

That shows that I DON'T have an issue with the clicker or marking training.

At the start, it seemed you tried to the clicker just so that you could say corrections were still a viable and necessary tool that did not negatively affect the other operant quadrants. Whether that was your intention or not.

I used the clicker before even joining this board! LOL My using the clicker has nothing to do with anyone here -- or showing anything to anyone here -- or proving anything to anyone here. Got that? What I do with my dogs is for me and my dogs only. Not just so I can say something to someone here. I'm not 12! LOL

I would hope that now that you've had some success with the clicker method, we might here more of that.

Don't hold your breath. If I do something I think you might be interested in, I'll PM you. But my experiences here (with people associated with clicker training) have done more to make me want to smash my clickers with a big hammer and melt them into a burning black, plastic, stinky, heap than to report here any success I might experience. But since I'm not going to do anything to "show" or "prove" anything to anyone, I'll just keep them intact and use them when I feel like it - without the religion.

I hope that clears up the "misunderstandings", but I have little hope, to be honest. How about the thread returning to the subject instead of 'How Carla Trains her Dogs'? Anne, you always tell me that it's not about me... I can't help but wonder why you continue to make it so... Interesting.

Chuffy

What is it "CM" said on South Park... "I am not validating his behaviour with a response...." 

It's six and two threes. 

Just got caught up by the notion that I should repeat that little speech.  It's not become "How Carla Trains Her Dogs" it's more like "Anne and Carla Taking Pot Shots, Take #473"

Good grief, if it wasn't such a waste of a fine thread I'd laugh.

Four, I hear you about being cautious how much info we share.  I've got caught out in the past too, hence my reticence on certain things.  But you are the main person here championing how "we are more alike than we are different" and "there is no Great Divide".... and yet here we have a fine piece of common ground in which to meet and discuss and learn and you shy away from it and denounce others as being part of some "movement" or religion in which you want no part.  If I cared more, I'd be perplexed.

FourIsCompany

True, but I didn't say it "scared me" or that I was "giving it up". That was manufactured information by Spiritdogs. She made it up.

Actually, I wasn't interested in your opinion of another member. I was more interested in why you thought your dogs were manic or emotionally unstable from the clicker training. It's hard not to talk about your training because you are involved in this thread.

FourIsCompany

I have no idea what you mean by "the endless series of apologetics in using corrections". I have never apologized for using corrections

Here's a definition of apologetics. Normally, it was associated with the defense of Christianity. I misappropriated it to describe the defense of corrections.

"Apologists are authors, writers, editors of scientific logs or academic journals, and leaders known for taking on the points in arguments, conflicts or positions that are either placed under popular scrutinies or viewed under persecutory examinations. The term comes from the Greek word apologia, meaning a speaking in defense"

FourIsCompany

The results did show that they're not shut down, and I did post that here. Your point?

You just made the point, again.

FourIsCompany

make me want to smash my clickers with a big hammer and melt them into a burning black, plastic, stinky, heap than to report here any success I might experience

okay ...

FourIsCompany

without the religion

Could you prove that it's a religion? I am aware of the scientific principles that are evident for anyone to see. But I am not aware of any articles of faith. In fact, I'm not aware of anyone one here having to defend the positive methods or marker training, as one might have to defend the use of punishment or corrections.

FWIW, many who have transitioned to the more positive methods and marker training started out with the corrections and punishment training, some of it quite a bit more harsh than you have admitted to using. That is, they don't say what they do with a lack of experience but instead have quite a bit with both methods.

But I fear that these discussions are political.

I used to think just like you. In my experience, I learned from others and changed my ways of thinking and doing, regardless of who might not call me friend, anymore. In fact, it has cost me a bit in that arena. Some who used to be more friendly to me aren't as much, now, because I no longer defend CM or the need for a majority of corrections. It's a nasty personal habit of mine to say what I think or know, regardless of the politics. I don't have an image to defend. And even recently, I can admit when I have made a statement that might be hasty or incomplete. Such as the Theory of Mind discussion.

But, I suppose, in the end, we all do what we are going to do, whether others like it, or not. And your dogs looked fine to me in that flirt pole video, btw.

ron2

Actually, I wasn't interested in your opinion of another member.

I haven't given you my opinion of another member, so that works.

ron2

I was more interested in why you thought your dogs were manic or emotionally unstable from the clicker training.

I don't think my dogs are manic or emotionally unstable from clicker training and have never said so. Now you're making stuff up. LOL

ron2

It's hard not to talk about your training because you are involved in this thread.

Well, all right. If you just can't help yourself, carry on.

ron2

Could you prove that it's a religion?

Well, no. I can't prove anything. I don't have any need to prove anything. All I can do is observe the evidence. I can't tell you how many religious people have told me, "I used to think just like you. I was lost... But I learned, I saw the light and I changed my ways of thinking and doing things. I lost friends because I no longer participated in the sinful indulgences they did, I had to leave them behind... but I am proud of my newfound religion and I'm going to speak the Truth wherever I go...  and now that I know the Truth, I think you should change your ways, too"! 

ron2

I used to think just like you. In my experience, I learned from others and changed my ways of thinking and doing, regardless of who might not call me friend, anymore. In fact, it has cost me a bit in that arena. Some who used to be more friendly to me aren't as much, now, because I no longer defend CM or the need for a majority of corrections. It's a nasty personal habit of mine to say what I think or know, regardless of the politics. I don't have an image to defend.

Ron, I understand you changed your ways. And I'm happy that you found something that makes you happy; something you're so sure about.  Really. But it's not for me.

And your dogs looked fine to me in that flirt pole video, btw.

Well... Thanks.  

I have never shied away from using a clicker.

Well, actually, that is true.  But, what you HAVE shied away from is clicker training.  Just using a clicker is NOT clicker training.  Clicker training employs a whole set of principles which you do not adhere to.  

spiritdogs

But, what you HAVE shied away from is clicker training. Just using a clicker is NOT clicker training.  Clicker training employs a whole set of principles which you do not adhere to.

Oops! Wrong again. I have made an educated choice not to join the philosophical cult of "clicker training" (containing the principles of which you speak). I have no feelings of shyness, trepidation, fear, apprehension or anxiety about my choice. I don't "shy away from" clicker training, I simply make a different choice. But if you want to think of me in those terms, feel free. And I will continue to happily use my clickers as one of my tools, without being a member of the "clicker trainer's" club. 

Whatever your decision, the fact remains that the mere fact of using a clicker is NOT clicker training, which incidentally you can actually do without a clicker.  And, last I heard, science was not a cult.  I think you have us mixed up with the Church of Cesar Millan. But we are drifting off topic.  Apparently, you are like the dog who always wants to get out the door first.  Too bad, beat you to it.  This thread is done for me.  Enjoy your vacuum.

FourIsCompany

I don't think my dogs are manic or emotionally unstable from clicker training and have never said so. Now you're making stuff up

Well, I know that in another place, you said words to the effect that you didn't like the effect clicker training was having on your dogs. Then, I had read a post of yours, here, in this forum, that said pretty much the same thing. I did not make it up. I'm too busy getting fitted for my priest robe.

I guess I'll have to find the post of yours where I read that.

ETA:

From the sledgehammer thread.

Reaching for a Sledgehammer to do a Caliper's job

"And here's the part I haven't been willing to share before now. I started to feel incredibly guilty. I felt like I had brought these 2 beautiful, natural beings into my life and now I was training them to perform like little robots. Do this, do that, do the other thing. Perform. Oh, how cute! I felt demanding, controlling and selfish. When they looked at me, trying to figure out  what on earth I wanted next, when they tried various behaviors, waiting for the almighty click of approval... I couldn't do it any more. It seemed like their little lives revolved around desperately (almost neurotically) trying to figure out what I wanted and I didn't like that. I decided that they didn't need any more training than the very basic commands. They needed to be dogs, not toys for my entertainment. Not performers. It felt SO unnatural! So unlike an animal's existence."

My bad for the wrong choice of words. You did not say manic or obssessed. You said desperate and neurotic. And now that I read the passage again, I realize that the your problem with the clicker method was more about your feelings, imo, than that of the dogs' feelings. I used the wrong word, but I did not make up your clear misgivings with the method. I could ask you why you felt the way you did, but you would just call me a liar, again.

ron2

I realize that the your problem with the clicker method was more about your feelings, imo, than that of the dogs' feelings.

Exactly. And I never said anyone was a liar. LOL I do get tired of people misquoting me, though...   And if you'll look around, you'll find I have come to terms with my feelings about the clicker. I even have videos!

FourIsCompany

But my experiences here (with people associated with clicker training) have done more to make me want to smash my clickers with a big hammer and melt them into a burning black, plastic, stinky, heap than to report here any success I might experience.

Maybe it's time to step away from the "touchy" areas of the forum, then? I have made a personal vow not to let the behavior of some proponents/opponents of  whatever training method influence the methods I use with my dog. It would be a shame to discount a good technique, or adopt a bad one, just because of conflicts with people who use those techniques, no?

/taking a big breath and going back to lurk in the photo section for a while...