Unintended Consequences of Punishment

mudpuppy

Or locked in, as Dgriego would describe her dog. When he's locked in, he's not interested in a treat. He is focused on that other thing.

yeah, that's not reactivity, though. "Reactivity" is the dog who is over-stimulated by something to the point where he basically loses any self-control and just, well, reacts. A highly focused dog is in firm control of himself.

Where's the line between them? Or in a case like Nyx, who does lock in. She locks in prior to reacting. Maybe it's not that she loses self control, but rather that she never learned self control, that she never learned that she was supposed to exhibit self control?

mudpuppy

yeah, that's not reactivity, though. "Reactivity" is the dog who is over-stimulated by something to the point where he basically loses any self-control and just, well, reacts. A highly focused dog is in firm control of himself

 

Thanks for that distinction. You described it better than I did.

 

 I don't want to sound argumentative, and I don't know corgipower's dog, so I'm not directing this that way...

I own an extremely reactive AND prey driven dog.  (You try living with that LOL.)   I did manage to train her using OC, and virtually no +P, but I can also see how years ago, without the skill level and timing that I now have, I might have had a more difficult time and been more inclined to resort to punishment.  We are all on a journey here, with our dogs as our best teachers, and at least I do commend those who are trying to reduce punishment (and the unintended consequences of it).  I think that it is valuable, even if you have years of experience, to occasionally sit through a seminar by someone like Kathy Sdao or Karen Pryor, to help rethink the way we manage these dogs, and to improve our perception and timing (the latter is a big one), and how we get more imaginative about the reinforcers we can use, aside from just food or toys.  Just yesterday, I did a behavior consultation that would have thrown me for a loop two just years ago, even with all the training and experience I've had.  When we know better, we do better.  Never stop learning or trying. 

spiritdogs

 I don't want to sound argumentative, and I don't know corgipower's dog, so I'm not directing this that way...

I own an extremely reactive AND prey driven dog.  (You try living with that LOL.)   I did manage to train her using OC, and virtually no +P, but I can also see how years ago, without the skill level and timing that I now have, I might have had a more difficult time and been more inclined to resort to punishment. 

Can you describe what you did with her? And what she was like?

spiritdogs

(You try living with that LOL.) 

*raises hand*

Oh, oh, I do! I do! Her name starts with a G, and ends in an I.......and boy can I really relate. Her reactivity is directed towards moving objects (prey) and people (fear), so it's good that hers are specific. I remember teaching her to get over the sight of a field of cows....lol. That was fun. I'm sure people were wondering why we were hanging out on the side of the road as they drove by *G*

corgipower

Where's the line between them? Or in a case like Nyx, who does lock in. She locks in prior to reacting. Maybe it's not that she loses self control, but rather that she never learned self control, that she never learned that she was supposed to exhibit self control?

The line? That's a good question, because reactivity is quite subjective - there is no "reactivity scale" that I'm currently aware of. It's more based along a continuum and basing on how the dog "reacts" in a given situation.

In terms of a dog that locks in and can't focus, firstly it will depend on breed. A breed like a BC naturally gives eye and appears to stare. But at the same time they ideally should be very responsive to their person. A dog that locks in with full attention, and while not yet reacting, but cannot focus on their person, is not what I would consider normal behaviour (well, it would be apparently normal to the dog, but in terms of discussing reactivity), and often it is the beginning to reactive behaviour. For a dog to tense up and lock on another object (be it person, car, leaf, etc), it means that there is a reason the dog is doing this, the dog finds something about that stimulus that requires devoting all of its attention to it, and ignoring the human at the other end.

In terms of self control and reactivity, it's interesting to think about. I think reactivity is different than self control issues on their own, although developing self control can lessen reactivity. Reactivity to me is more....almost a personality trait, which determines how dogs react (hence the term) in general to the world around them. You can have dogs that have no self control but aren't reactive, just as you can have dogs that are reactive that have good self control. And of course the other combinations in between. But the goal is to have a reactive dog that does have good self control, certainly. And the other thing to note, that some have misunderstood in the past, is that reactivity is not synonymous with aggression, not at all. You can have reactivity that leads to aggression, but certainly not all reactive dogs show aggression by any means. I consider reactive to be a part of a dog's personality, that you can work within but not necessarily ever truly eliminate, or at least you would say it is the first course of action within that personality (until you teach something incompatible). Of course it's such a broad topic that there is always the exception to the rule.

Thanks Kim! What's interesting about Nyx is that 95% of her out-of-control, unfocused, locked in prey, lunging and barking issues are outdoors. OMG!! There's a bird! OMG!! A leaf blew! OMG!! A small child! And it's simply more than she is ready to process. When she's in the house, with not much going on ~ and if I have her attention (if we're actively involved in a training session) and someone walks into the room, she barely looks at them. If we're not actively training, and I don't have her attention, she'll react to their entry. These training sessions are being done very quietly, often without a leash on or with a leash dragging, sometimes without a collar on. I typically don't have treats on me, nor do I have a toy in my hand. I praise her, I talk quietly to her, I use a verbal marker. Now if I attempt to take that same training outdoors, all hell breaks loose. I have even had her training while Tyr was loose, and Tyr would try to initiate play. She wouldn't even look at him. She would continue to train. Again, outdoors or not in a training session, if Tyr were to initiate play, she would explode into a frenzy.

 First thing I did with Sequoyah was to work on attention - the minute she hears her name, she turns her head my way.  I installed a really solid recall and "leave it", and then combined them.  So, when she hears, "leave it" - "come", she does.  I used a TON of food (at first), and I always had a clicker and treats on me.  I taught her to "stay" by doing it at dinner time.  She had to sit and wait till the bowl hit the floor - I did it that way because she couldn't even stay still long enough for me to give a hand signal LOL.  She would follow my hand around like a nutcase!  I also trained her, at first, separate from the other dogs.  I took her to multiple classes (thank goodness, they were free - all us trainers have our dogs in each other's classes all the freakin' time, whether they need it or not). 

It just sounds as though you have not had a chance yet to work on the behaviors she knows with distractions.  Add them slowly. Go outside to train on a calm day with no wind, AFTER she is tired from play.  Do behaviors she is really good at.  Jackpot self control.   Go to a clicker training class and learn how to use the clicker to get the behavior, and then distance or duration, and fluency.  I think once you experience it, you won't go back.  JMHO

spiritdogs

I took her to multiple classes (thank goodness, they were free - all us trainers have our dogs in each other's classes all the freakin' time, whether they need it or not). 

*sigh* - where does this take place and how do i get there?

It just sounds as though you have not had a chance yet to work on the behaviors she knows with distractions.  Add them slowly. Go outside to train on a calm day with no wind, AFTER she is tired from play.  Do behaviors she is really good at.  Jackpot self control.   Go to a clicker training class and learn how to use the clicker to get the behavior, and then distance or duration, and fluency.  I think once you experience it, you won't go back.  JMHO

I admit that I haven't had enough chance to work on behaviors with distractions. She is definitely better when there's no wind. Unfortunately the weather hasn't been the most cooperative. Not much I can do there except keep going with what I got. I do know how to use a clicker, and I do use marker training with her. I would love to take her to a class, of any type, but they've been inaccessible for many reasons ~ filled, too far away, too expensive, on a night when I work ~ I do keep trying, as I know it would be good for her to be around other dogs in a controlled environment. As for the not going back ~ well, only time will tell, but right now, I don't see it. A lot of what's necessary for true clicker training to be effective simply isn't realistic in my world.

spiritdogs

 First thing I did with Sequoyah was to work on attention - the minute she hears her name, she turns her head my way.  I installed a really solid recall and "leave it", and then combined them.  So, when she hears, "leave it" - "come", she does.  I used a TON of food (at first), and I always had a clicker and treats on me.  I taught her to "stay" by doing it at dinner time.  She had to sit and wait till the bowl hit the floor - I did it that way because she couldn't even stay still long enough for me to give a hand signal LOL.  She would follow my hand around like a nutcase!  I also trained her, at first, separate from the other dogs. 

Thanks!! That's pretty much what we're working on, it's just progressing slowly.

Oh,Oh (hand goes up)!!

My wonderful little dog, has so many layers and has been very complex to figure out.  He started out as a non confident, shy and fear aggressive puppy, then he morphed into more confident older pup/young adult,  over stimulated,  self control issues, reactivity, guardy and still had/has some fear aggressive issues towards strange dogs and strange people.  And to top it off, he has always been, including when he was a pup a very high prey dog which continued to grow as he matured.   He is also one of the most intelligent dogs I have ever had the pleasure to be around.   He has taught me how to recognize and distinguish between all of those states or a combo of them.  Forced me to learn how to train him correctly while encouraging some and extinguishing  others.  Oh yeah, he also had the beginnings of SA issues, which if I hadn't been very careful would have exploded. 

Oh, LMAO, make a mistake in behaviour or training.............and do those mistakes ever come back to bite you in the ***.  Lessons you don't forget, but lessons that do have their benefit in the long term.  It's been a journey to say the least and I wouldn't have missed it for anything.  

This is a dog that has excelled at everything I have ever asked him to do, earned Ch.  in many different events and is a awesome earthworking terrier.  He hasn't been easy but he has been worth it especially in what he has taught me.

 Lynn

corgipower

What I mean by a firm correction is a leash and collar pop using a prong collar. The conditions varied to some extent, but basically when she would jump on me with attempts at mauling, when she would catch sight of a dog, squirrel, blowing leaf, piece of garbage, toddler and begin barking and lunging. The correction occured as the misbehavior started. She now is able to jump on me without mauling me, she is able to look at a dog, squirrel, blowing leaf, piece of garbage, toddler and not bark and lunge, she is now able to look at a dog, squirrel, blowing leaf, piece of garbage, toddler and then look at me. The corrections were accompanied by a "no" and followed with a redirection to a "sitz", which then got rewarded.

corgipower, I have had almost the exact same reaction/response from my little Chi who was leash-reactive.  I have had to use a few leash corrections (she wears a harness) and now she actually pays attention to me in other areas as well.

I had been trying for months to use only positive reinforcement and she was getting worse.  Now I am able to walk her with no problems.  It is a huge relief!