Unintended Consequences of Punishment

I went to the site and I read the first article. How to stop your dog from barking. And I found it interesting that it never covered the main time my dogs bark. When they are playing. So I stopped reading it, as it would have been no use to me.
I am glad that clicker training works for some. Heck, its worked great for me at times. But I will never be convinced that it is the ONLY way to go. I train my dog based off the dog. If I have a softer dog, such as my English Cocker, I use different training techniques than my hard headed Beagles. And I have had softer beagles that I train differently than my stubborn ones. I have had more success training based off the dog's personality than giving the blanket statement that all dogs must be trained a certain way.

lcbryson

I went to the site and I read the first article. How to stop your dog from barking.

I got as far as this ~

When you're training, make sure inappropriate barking isn't rewarded—and that the preferred response is.

So I guess when I was training Morgan and she was a pup and she was so proud of what she was learning ~ I would say "platz" and as she laid down, she barked. I would say "sitz" and as she sat, she barked. I would say "fuss" and as she took her first step of heeling, she barked. One bark each time. She was so happy. She was so proud of herself. So I laughed and praised and rewarded her. I loved her enthusiasm. I guess I wasn't supposed to reinforce the barking. Although I needed to reinforce the platz, the sitz, the fuss. I couldn't very well reinforce one and not the other.

From the article on "what is clicker training ~

What if the animal does not obey the cue?
Clicker trained animals want to perform behaviors for which they have been rewarded in the past. If they understand the meaning of the cue and desire the reward, they will perform the behavior.
If they do not perform the behavior, clicker trainers do not assume that the animal is “disobeying.” Instead the trainer asks the following questions:
Does the animal know the meaning of the cue?
Does the animal know the meaning of the cue in the environment in which it was first taught, but not in the environment in which it was given?
Is the reward for doing the behavior sufficiently desired by the animal?
After answering those questions, the clicker trainer revises the training process to be sure that the animal knows the meaning of the cue in all environments, regardless of distractions, and feels rewarded for the behavior.

let's see ~ ares - yes he knows the meaning of the cue. he knows the meaning of the cue in several hundred envronments, and although this particular environment is, undoubtedly, different because no two are exactly identical, at this stage of the game, he should be able to handle that. yes, the reward is sufficiently desired. ok ~ now - why is he disobeying? ooops! sorry. he's not "disobeying" um....

corgipower

let's see ~ ares - yes he knows the meaning of the cue. he knows the meaning of the cue in several hundred envronments, and although this particular environment is, undoubtedly, different because no two are exactly identical, at this stage of the game, he should be able to handle that. yes, the reward is sufficiently desired. ok ~ now - why is he disobeying? ooops! sorry. he's not "disobeying" um....

I have seen what is sometimes referred to as "willful disobedience" in my guys. For instance, Gaci hates laying down in wet grass or on snow. Hates it purely as though it was a sin that should never occur. I know this know, so I don't tend to ask her to lie down in the grass, as she finds it aversive and I don't wish to make her do it "just because" - there are plenty of other things she could do if needed rather than lie down. But those times when I forget, and ask her to lie down, you can tell that she knows fully what you want. She will crouch right down so that her body is allllllmost touching the ground but not quite, and look at you like "See? I'm trying, I really am!". Or she'll do a sort-of play-bow where she puts her elbows down properly but won't put her belly on the wet grass. She's trying her hardest to comply but at the same time is clearly conflicted in the aversiveness (to her) of wet grass on belly.

Another time I asked Shimmer to "Go to bed" (go in her kennel - different from 'bed time' which is bed time in our normal bed), and she walked up to her kennel and sat down. Thinking she didn't hear me or that something was up, I cued it again. She looked at me like I was a fool. I knew she knows the cue, so why wasn't she doing it? Turns out she had thrown up a bit of grass in her kennel during the day (kennel doors are left open to be in whenever they want, unless a dog pushes it shut), and refused to go back in it like that! Smart girl if you ask me! I love though how they clearly communicate back to me that they know what I'm asking, but they aren't doing it for a reason.

Other examples are sitting at the door before a walk, or sitting and waiting to get out of a vehicle (I pick them because they are easy examples). This applies more to the past than it does now, but it occasionally crops up. If Gaci got too excited to go out on her walk, she would "forget" to sit at the door, or would sit and bounce back out of it again. As if to say "See, I sat, let's go!". Now, I could argue that part of it IS that I didn't teach "duration" at the door, but part of it also is simply her excitement to get on with it, who needs this petty "sitting" stuff here? She knows the cue, but like a child in a candy store knows, excitement can sometimes conflict with known behaviours. With patience and work the problem solves itself, as the dog learns increased self control and that the key to getting what you want is to do as you are asked. The faster you do it right, the quicker you'll get what you want!

Other scenarios include the dog simply didn't hear you, the dog wasn't motivated at that time, the dog learns when reinforcement certainly "will not" happen (aka the "ring-wise" dog) so there's no point in doing the behaviours, or the dog is faced with a stressful situation, such as fear. Oftentimes if a dog is faced with something very fearful they find it very hard to make focus on you and listen to cues. It's not that they don't know the behaviour, but they are faced with something really scary! I must say that as much as I love to cross-stitch or do sit-ups, I don't think I'm going to be too motivated to do them if I'm in a room with a hungry lion, for instance. *G* Stress levels can affect performance for sure, regardless of how well taught the behaviour was in non-stressful conditions.

But I think the point of the above quote is that far too many people do incorrectly assume their dog knows something when it doesn't actually know (The "he knows better" phenomenon). Or they assume that because they've taught it in the kitchen, their dog should know it everywhere. Or because they've taught it with kibble in a boring kitchen, that they'll do it for nothing right away in a dog park. That sort of thing. I have seen it far too much to understand the premise that the quote above is making, and hopefully you understand that premise too. The point is not that it's always "the dog doesn't understand it" (although some people feel that way, and I don't necessarily agree with it), but for a large number of issues, the problem does come back to how it was taught, or more specifically how it wasn't taught.

Rather than taking it literally that "all non-responses are a teaching issue", do you agree that this is something that occurs in general teaching? That a large number of people do tend to assume the dog knows it too quickly, or moves too quickly in teaching, or point blank simply assume the dog "should know better"?

Kim_MacMillan

I have seen what is sometimes referred to as "willful disobedience" in my guys. For instance, Gaci hates laying down in wet grass or on snow. Hates it purely as though it was a sin that should never occur. I know this know, so I don't tend to ask her to lie down in the grass, as she finds it aversive and I don't wish to make her do it "just because" - there are plenty of other things she could do if needed rather than lie down. But those times when I forget, and ask her to lie down, you can tell that she knows fully what you want. She will crouch right down so that her body is allllllmost touching the ground but not quite, and look at you like "See? I'm trying, I really am!". Or she'll do a sort-of play-bow where she puts her elbows down properly but won't put her belly on the wet grass. She's trying her hardest to comply but at the same time is clearly conflicted in the aversiveness (to her) of wet grass on belly.

Yes, and Ares will do the same. I don't doubt that cold wet surfaces hurt him, and I don't ask for a sit or a down. If I need a stay behavior, I use the stand stay. I wasn't referring to such a situation.

Kim_MacMillan

Another time I asked Shimmer to "Go to bed" (go in her kennel - different from 'bed time' which is bed time in our normal bed), and she walked up to her kennel and sat down. Thinking she didn't hear me or that something was up, I cued it again. She looked at me like I was a fool. I knew she knows the cue, so why wasn't she doing it? Turns out she had thrown up a bit of grass in her kennel during the day (kennel doors are left open to be in whenever they want, unless a dog pushes it shut), and refused to go back in it like that! Smart girl if you ask me! I love though how they clearly communicate back to me that they know what I'm asking, but they aren't doing it for a reason.

Nice! My dogs will communicate that they know what I'm asking, and then they'll head off with clear communication that says, "Later. I have other plans."

Kim_MacMillan

Other examples are sitting at the door before a walk, or sitting and waiting to get out of a vehicle (I pick them because they are easy examples). This applies more to the past than it does now, but it occasionally crops up. If Gaci got too excited to go out on her walk, she would "forget" to sit at the door, or would sit and bounce back out of it again. As if to say "See, I sat, let's go!". Now, I could argue that part of it IS that I didn't teach "duration" at the door, but part of it also is simply her excitement to get on with it, who needs this petty "sitting" stuff here? She knows the cue, but like a child in a candy store knows, excitement can sometimes conflict with known behaviours. With patience and work the problem solves itself, as the dog learns increased self control and that the key to getting what you want is to do as you are asked. The faster you do it right, the quicker you'll get what you want!

Agreed, but at 8 years old, and having had to sit at the door every time it opened for 7 and a half years, with duration and with proofing under a plethora of circumstances, I would expect a dog to simply sit. Except that I do get rare occasions where the dog will say "Eh, not this time!!"

Kim_MacMillan

Other scenarios include the dog simply didn't hear you, the dog wasn't motivated at that time, the dog learns when reinforcement certainly "will not" happen (aka the "ring-wise" dog) so there's no point in doing the behaviours, or the dog is faced with a stressful situation, such as fear. Oftentimes if a dog is faced with something very fearful they find it very hard to make focus on you and listen to cues. It's not that they don't know the behaviour, but they are faced with something really scary! I must say that as much as I love to cross-stitch or do sit-ups, I don't think I'm going to be too motivated to do them if I'm in a room with a hungry lion, for instance. *G* Stress levels can affect performance for sure, regardless of how well taught the behaviour was in non-stressful conditions.

I don't have the same expectations when my dog is confronted with something scary. As for the dog learning when reinforcement will not happen ~ if Ares is on the bed with me while I'm sleeping, he will nudge me to see if I'm really asleep. If I move or respond, he lies down with a look that says "just checking on you." I have purposely not responded to his nudges and after a couple tries, he will head off to go get into things he shouldn't be getting into. It's quite a challenge when the dog is *that* clever. As for other situations, after 8 years and a couple of titles, the dog certainly doesn't expect a reinforcer every time he does something.

Kim_MacMillan

But I think the point of the above quote is that far too many people do incorrectly assume their dog knows something when it doesn't actually know (The "he knows better" phenomenon). Or they assume that because they've taught it in the kitchen, their dog should know it everywhere. Or because they've taught it with kibble in a boring kitchen, that they'll do it for nothing right away in a dog park. That sort of thing. I have seen it far too much to understand the premise that the quote above is making, and hopefully you understand that premise too. The point is not that it's always "the dog doesn't understand it" (although some people feel that way, and I don't necessarily agree with it), but for a large number of issues, the problem does come back to how it was taught, or more specifically how it wasn't taught.

Agreed. I was referencing a dog where most of the time it isn't a matter of him not understanding it. When there are environmental issues that make it unreasonable to expect him to perform specific behaviors, well, I don't expect them. But those times are few and far between.

Kim_MacMillan

Rather than taking it literally that "all non-responses are a teaching issue", do you agree that this is something that occurs in general teaching? That a large number of people do tend to assume the dog knows it too quickly, or moves too quickly in teaching, or point blank simply assume the dog "should know better"?

I absolutely agree. But I disagree with the article's implication that that is *always* the case.

corgipower

lcbryson

I went to the site and I read the first article. How to stop your dog from barking.

I got as far as this ~

When you're training, make sure inappropriate barking isn't rewarded—and that the preferred response is.

So I guess when I was training Morgan and she was a pup and she was so proud of what she was learning ~ I would say "platz" and as she laid down, she barked. I would say "sitz" and as she sat, she barked. I would say "fuss" and as she took her first step of heeling, she barked. One bark each time. She was so happy. She was so proud of herself. So I laughed and praised and rewarded her. I loved her enthusiasm. I guess I wasn't supposed to reinforce the barking. Although I needed to reinforce the platz, the sitz, the fuss. I couldn't very well reinforce one and not the other.

 

With clicker training, you should easily be able to reinforce on without the other, or separate the accidental "behavior chain" you created.  We do it all the time. 

Unfortunately, the old ideas of naming a behavior as the dog does the first attempt has handicapped you.  The clicker trainer's axiom, for future reference, is that you never name an imperfect behavior.  So, your dog's behavior could have been modified before she ever heard the word "platz".  Example: I start reinforcing the dog for lying down, but my dog barks while lying down.  I stop reinforcing any down that is accompanied by barks.  Maybe I stick a piece of roast beef on his nose to lure him down the first couple of times (hard to bark while you sniff) I reinforce the silent down a couple of times with the lure.  I then stop luring.  I reinforce a silent down (wait - if the dog is clicker savvy, he will be working to find out how to make you click that thing).  If the dog makes an "error" I simply ignore and do not reinforce - again, the clicker savvy dog should start offering behavior that he thinks is going to make you click.  I ignore anything that isn't a silent down, but when the dog does one, which, if he was being rewarded for it a few moments ago, she should remember and do, jackpot her for about 20 seconds.  After I get the dog repeating the silent down and I feel the dog "gets" that the silent down is what I wanted, I say "platz". 

All that has happened here is that you accidentally created a chain.  You could also elect to stop reinforcing the dog for "platz", which to her means "lie down while barking".  That behavior will eventually extinguish if it is never rewarded.  You can then teach "down" in the way that I just mentioned, not naming it until the down is the way you want - use a command that isn't "platz".  THEN, you can even transfer the cue back to "platz" later, once the dog has generalized the behavior and is fluent.

I have people do this all the time in class when they have already ruined "come" - we just change the cue to "now" or some other word, but if they want, they can change it back to "come" when the dog is fluent in the behavior.  First the two cues are closely coupled, then only the new cue is used. 

 

corgipower

Nice! My dogs will communicate that they know what I'm asking, and then they'll head off with clear communication that says, "Later. I have other plans."

Okay, I haven't really run into that issue. That sounds to me like a motivation issue. The "other plans" seem to be a higher priority right at that moment than what you're asking. The goal would be to make what you're asking be the higher priority. Can you elaborate and we can explore it further to ensure I'm not misunderstanding you?

corgipower

Agreed, but at 8 years old, and having had to sit at the door every time it opened for 7 and a half years, with duration and with proofing under a plethora of circumstances, I would expect a dog to simply sit. Except that I do get rare occasions where the dog will say "Eh, not this time!!"

Yep, I've seen that too. I just put it down to dogs being living beings rather than robots. To be honest it's part of what makes living with them so fun, that they are freethinking animals. You know, mom's been after me since I was very little to "put your dishes away in the dishwasher when you're done" (well, since we had a dishwasher, otherwise it was into the sink). And to this day occasionally I still will once in a while leave a dish on the counter until another time, even though it would only take 2 seconds to open the dishwasher door and put it in at that time. It's just a part of life where nobody's perfect I think.

corgipower

I don't have the same expectations when my dog is confronted with something scary.

I'm glad to hear that, there are some folks who do have these expectations and it's unfortunate.

corgipower

As for the dog learning when reinforcement will not happen ~ if Ares is on the bed with me while I'm sleeping, he will nudge me to see if I'm really asleep. If I move or respond, he lies down with a look that says "just checking on you." I have purposely not responded to his nudges and after a couple tries, he will head off to go get into things he shouldn't be getting into.

What a clever guy indeed! And it's quite funny to hear, even though I'm sure it can set you up for frustration *G*. Does he get a strange look of surprise if after thinking you're asleep, you suddenly "appear" in the room? I wonder if it would have greater effect if you suddenly "appear" from a location that is totally incongruent with where he thinks you are - he leaves you in the bedroom and you appear through the garage door (climbing through windows? LOL!). Perhaps if he believed that "mama's always watching" he would moderate his behaviour. Have you tried it?

corgipower

As for other situations, after 8 years and a couple of titles, the dog certainly doesn't expect a reinforcer every time he does something.

I agree.

corgipower

I absolutely agree. But I disagree with the article's implication that that is *always* the case.

Me too! I suppose I got initially a different impression of it. I had noticed that it was emphasizing the fact that this "assumption of knowing" is far too common in our general public, I'm sure even the author would agree that there are times when dogs know behaviours but do not do them for some particular reason (even insufficient motivation is a reason to a dog/person/cat/budgie). And even maybe the author didn't intend to make that implication (or maybe they did, it's just food for thought!). But I see your point and how you reached the conclusion that you did.

Kim_MacMillan

corgipower

Nice! My dogs will communicate that they know what I'm asking, and then they'll head off with clear communication that says, "Later. I have other plans."

Okay, I haven't really run into that issue. That sounds to me like a motivation issue. The "other plans" seem to be a higher priority right at that moment than what you're asking. The goal would be to make what you're asking be the higher priority. Can you elaborate and we can explore it further to ensure I'm not misunderstanding you?

I can try, although it's not a problem in my world, it might make for an interesting discussion.

Morgan is the biggest one for this. Morgan has received the least amount of P+ in her training. There's no one thing that she does, it's just a look. There was one time I was in the obedience ring at a trial. We got to the recall. I left her on a sit stay. I walked to the other end of the ring. I said "Here." She looked at me, and then threw her nose up in the air and sat. It was obvious that she had heard me. It was obvious that she was simply saying "Nope, not gonna do it." The judge advised me to call her again. I didn't. I walked back to her and got her and left the ring. Had she not been on a stay when I called her, she probably would have looked at me to acknowledge the command, and then headed off to do ~ well, almost anything else. To lie down, to sniff, to run in a circle, etc.

Morgan is 7 years old and titled. She usually loves to come to me. She usually will run over to me, wagging her tail, jumping around, looking for treats, looking to be petted.

Mind you, it isn't always the recall where she will have "other plans". I suppose the "other plans" is similar to the example below about the dog breaking the sit at the door. A living being. And TBH, by now, I have pretty much given in to her. I allow her to have her own plans unless she is attempting to do something dangerous and as long as she has manners. I wish I had a video camera so I could show you what I mean. I've had several people who know the dog agree that the "other plans" statement seems about right to describe what she does. And in actuality, the way she does it is pretty cute.

Kim_MacMillan

corgipower

Agreed, but at 8 years old, and having had to sit at the door every time it opened for 7 and a half years, with duration and with proofing under a plethora of circumstances, I would expect a dog to simply sit. Except that I do get rare occasions where the dog will say "Eh, not this time!!"

Yep, I've seen that too. I just put it down to dogs being living beings rather than robots.

Very true, but I would say that it is an example of a disobedience. Whether or not it receives a correction depends on a variety of other factors, including how important it is that the behavior occur. As with a sit at the door, if they are allowed this one time to not sit, then they will learn that they don't always have to sit. This will lead to them dashing out an open door at inopportune times and potentially disastrous outcomes.

Kim_MacMillan

Perhaps if he believed that "mama's always watching" he would moderate his behaviour. Have you tried it?

*sigh* I have tried several things ~ although not the climbing through windows to sneak up on him. Unfortunately, once I do fall asleep, he is free to do as he pleases. Which is why, at 8 years old, he still sleeps in his crate. I've been woken up to the sound of him vomiting after he got into things that were mildly toxic, and I firmly believe that keeping him crated is the better option, rather than gambling on whether or not he has learned not to sneak off. I will let him sleep with me occasionally. Usually the first night on the bed he's fine. It's the second night where he begins his adventures.

Awesome post spiritdogs... you always know how to make me think!

When it comes to unintended consequences of punishment this is what has happened to me:

I used to work nights and my boyfriend would watch Kayla while I was gone. Him never having a dog before I now realize this was a bad idea...

If she would have an "accident" he would scream, yell, flip out on her, grab her, throw her on the bed. When I witnessed this one night being off from work I freaked out saying is this what you do while I am gone?! I swear it destroyed much of my hard work to "positive training" methods with housebreaking. She would now  go in the other room or hide behind things to go the bathroom rather then let us know she needed to go. She was scared to go!!

After months of positive training Kayla would go on the grass and immediately pee. BUT she would still have housebreak issues occasionally. I do (and have) admitted to scolding her twice with punishment (sticking her nose next to the pee shouting "NO! OUTSIDE!";) After those couple of time's she never had a problem since.

I do find that because I did that though when she goes pee outside she likes her distance and always look at me when she's going to bathroom like "is this okay? can I do this?"

I regret using punishment scare tactics to be honest. All though they "may" have worked I now know (through its forum and else where) that my form of punishment wasn't correct. [Of course initially I didn't like doing it, but pressure from my boyfriend, and using old methods on past dogs lead me back to old roots.... won't happen next time around]

I am open to clicker training. I must admit a little intimidated; but you always have to start somewhere!

I went to the site and I read the first article. How to stop your dog from barking. And I found it interesting that it never covered the main time my dogs bark. When they are playing. So I stopped reading it, as it would have been no use to me.

I'm not sure why you concluded that- the main message of the article directly indicates the cure: play stops when dogs bark. Play resumes when dogs are quiet.

I can try, although it's not a problem in my world, it might make for an interesting discussion.

Morgan is the biggest one for this. Morgan has received the least amount of P+ in her training. There's no one thing that she does, it's just a look. There was one time I was in the obedience ring at a trial. We got to the recall. I left her on a sit stay. I walked to the other end of the ring. I said "Here." She looked at me, and then threw her nose up in the air and sat. It was obvious that she had heard me. It was obvious that she was simply saying "Nope, not gonna do it." The judge advised me to call her again. I didn't. I walked back to her and got her and left the ring. Had she not been on a stay when I called her, she probably would have looked at me to acknowledge the command, and then headed off to do ~ well, almost anything else. To lie down, to sniff, to run in a circle, etc.

that's interesting. But I find it weird you default to assuming she was just being ornery. Often one sees dogs outside the ring offering threatening behavior at dogs in the ring- a sensitive dog may refuse to approach such a dog, once saw a BC giving EYE to dogs and messing up run after run after run until the embarrassed owner figured out what was going on and popped dog in crate. Another very common reason for apparent disobediences is stress- the number of agility dogs who appear to "blow off" their handlers simply due to stress is astronomical- the dog runs around sniffing, or just runs around, or freezes, or bolts out of the ring, or offers default behaviors like sit and down. Doesn't that sound an awful lot like the behaviors your dog offers? stressed out of her mind, offering displacement and calming behaviors, or simply freezing up. Agility people know the worst thing you can do is move to punishment for such dogs- environmental stress, confusion and under-motivation and fear of punishment are what cause the problem in the first place.

mudpuppy

I can try, although it's not a problem in my world, it might make for an interesting discussion.

Morgan is the biggest one for this. Morgan has received the least amount of P+ in her training. There's no one thing that she does, it's just a look. There was one time I was in the obedience ring at a trial. We got to the recall. I left her on a sit stay. I walked to the other end of the ring. I said "Here." She looked at me, and then threw her nose up in the air and sat. It was obvious that she had heard me. It was obvious that she was simply saying "Nope, not gonna do it." The judge advised me to call her again. I didn't. I walked back to her and got her and left the ring. Had she not been on a stay when I called her, she probably would have looked at me to acknowledge the command, and then headed off to do ~ well, almost anything else. To lie down, to sniff, to run in a circle, etc.

that's interesting. But I find it weird you default to assuming she was just being ornery.

Ahh...but it was just one example. she definitely has her moods. she always has. The sticking her nose up in the air was a very deliberate thing, done immediately upon hearing the command.

I'm going to actually answer the implied question in the thread title.

Unintended consequences of punishment. I would scruff and pin Shadow for behavior I didn't want. And the behavior would occur again. It wasn't until much later when I understood the role of reinforcement that I understood what was wrong. As a puppy, his first owner's BF, who is the son of a friend of ours, would wrestle with him for play, vigorously, even as he got older. Most any physical correction I could think of, including the scruff and pin, did not feel like a punishment to him. It felt like play, which is often a reinforcer. Even though I thought it was a punishment. That's back when I thought he knew what I meant by this or that punishment. So, the unintended consequence of the punishment was the exact opposite of the desired intent. But if it had been a punishment to him, he could have either stopped, or come to fear me, or fear the last thing he did before being punished by me, which might have been to come near me. An actual punishment that the dog defines as a punishment at the wrong time can ruin a recall. The only way I could ramp up from even a hands-on physical control would have been to hit him, which I will not do. Not only do I not believe in hitting dogs, but that is also an excellent way to make them hand-shy or get bit.

I use to think that way also when my dog would turn his head away from me on startlines or for recalls and not complying...........stating that he had his own agenda.....turns out I needed to train him better.  He was also a titled dog, but when I addressed the problem and positively I may add the turn around was amazing.  Our Q rate shot up.

I also absolutely agree that a dogs performance can be compromized because of other factors in and outside of the ring.  It's a real education to watch dogs on the side lines and how they can effect the dogs in the ring.

A couple of years ago, while on course, my dog was flying along and then he all of sudden came in a missed a jump.  I was floored, the line was easy, I didn't have to support the line with body language etc and this dog never hits bars nor has ever refused a jump.  He also is adjusted regularly by my vet/chiropractor as a preventive and he has no lameness issues.  Of course we were faulted on that jump in what was otherwise a nice clean run well under time.

After I left the ring, still pondering why he had done that and watching him like a hawk for a bad step etc, a fellow exhibitor came over and apologized, it appears her BC gave my dog 'the look' while going into the well known BC stalk just as my dog got to that jump.  Kudos to her for knowing that can happen, moving her dog away and for apologizing for letting it happen in the first place.  She certainly earned my respect.  And of course I forgave her (grin), **** happens when competing and we can only control what we can.