Unintended Consequences of Punishment

spiritdogs

I would like to initiate a polite discussion on the unintended consequences of punishment

One unintended consequence of punishment came from Nyx. Nyx would barely give me the time of day. She was so prey driven, she was becoming dangerous. I had raised her with R+. I was trying all sorts of R+ and marker training and redirection with her. None of it was working. She really didn't much care about the marker. She just wanted the reward, and *NOW*!! I tried mild punishment, both P+ and P-. Nothing. With her getting close to a year old, I needed to get her under control. Her misbehaviors were rapidly escalating. I finally decided that her breeding and the upbringing she had both with the breeder and with me should be such that she could handle a correction. I gave her a firm correction. Her behavior began to improve. She began responding favorably to R+ and marker training. After a few days, she began to regress to her misbehaviors. I gave another correction. I saw more improvement. At this point, she has received maybe a half dozen firm corrections ~ the last one being a couple weeks ago. She now is very receptive to R+ and markers. She actively seeks out behaviors that will be rewarded. She checks in with me periodically. The intended result of the punishment was to stop her dangerous behaviors. The unintended consequence was that I have a dog who is more interested in what I have to offer. I have a dog who is more willing to offer acceptable behaviors. I have a dog who is beginning to want to sit next to me.

Corgipower- just out of interest, what do you mean by "a firm correction"? Under what conditions was it administered?

What I mean by a firm correction is a leash and collar pop using a prong collar. The conditions varied to some extent, but basically when she would jump on me with attempts at mauling, when she would catch sight of a dog, squirrel, blowing leaf, piece of garbage, toddler and begin barking and lunging. The correction occured as the misbehavior started. She now is able to jump on me without mauling me, she is able to look at a dog, squirrel, blowing leaf, piece of garbage, toddler and not bark and lunge, she is now able to look at a dog, squirrel, blowing leaf, piece of garbage, toddler and then look at me. The corrections were accompanied by a "no" and followed with a redirection to a "sitz", which then got rewarded.

Thank you for clarifying  

What I mean by a firm correction is a leash and collar pop using a prong collar. The conditions varied to some extent, but basically when she would jump on me with attempts at mauling, when she would catch sight of a dog, squirrel, blowing leaf, piece of garbage, toddler and begin barking and lunging. The correction occured as the misbehavior started. She now is able to jump on me without mauling me, she is able to look at a dog, squirrel, blowing leaf, piece of garbage, toddler and not bark and lunge, she is now able to look at a dog, squirrel, blowing leaf, piece of garbage, toddler and then look at me. The corrections were accompanied by a "no" and followed with a redirection to a "sitz", which then got rewarded.

mudpuppy

Which is readily fixable by standard "click to calm" protocols, and now one can also try the "control unleashed" protocols.

Not truly reactive. It's prey drive. And as for "click to calm", well that wouldn't have worked because she wasn't receptive or interested. Now that I have more of her focus, she is receptive and interested. I wasn't lucky. I spent months watching her and evaluating every little piece of the picture before giving a correction. I agree that corrections for reactivity can make them worse. That's why I waited until I was confident that I wasn't looking at reactivity, but rather was looking at prey drive. Corrections in prey drive, done appropriately, typically put a necessary check on the drive. Sometimes she still comes at me ~ when that happens now it's out of misdirected frustration. That's when I take things down a level or two and refocus her using calmness and R+. But that didn't work either until I had some of her focus.

mudpuppy

classic reactive dog behavior. Which is readily fixable by standard "click to calm" protocols, and now one can also try the "control unleashed" protocols. All I can say is you were very lucky- many dogs have responded to "corrections" for reactivity by getting astronomically worse. In fact, many dogs become reactive because of corrections. And yeah, you won't believe me, but it is well-documented.

Geez, when Marvin was reacting uncontrollably in his kennel to get out, I used click to calm and you said if it was your dog, you would ignore and wait for the settled behavior before opening the gate, even if it took hours of waiting.  To me your suggested approach was Punishment that I know this particular dog could not endure.  So I don't understand why you switched approaches here.

To me that isn't prey drive (or at least not completely prey drive), it's over stimulated, past the dogs threshold and it is being reactive.

My opinion for what its worth.

Lynn

Ado

To me that isn't prey drive (or at least not completely prey drive), it's over stimulated, past the dogs threshold and it is being reactive.

My opinion for what its worth.

Lynn

Well I have always found your opinions to be worth looking into, so I was inspired to do some googling. I found multiple definitions of reactivity. The one I had always been taught previously was that reactivity stemmed from fear, which is not the case with this dog. I did now find sources that define reactivity differently *sigh, back to a semantics game*. By some of those definitions, Nyx could very well be called reactive.

I found this one to be the most interetsing of articles ~ http://www.siriusdog.com/articles/schutzhund-sport-dogs-winkler1.htm

I would say that most of the time when someone speaks of a dog's hardness, all we really learn about the dog is his pain threshold and his level of reactivity. What is reactivity? Well, by that I just mean a tendency to show a reaction. It doesn't seem to matter nowadays what kind of reaction a dog shows. A dog that shows any reaction is too often automatically labeled as not as hard as a dog that shows no reaction. Often even positive and strong reactions are interpreted as signs of weakness. While dogs that either are not very reactive and/or have high stimulus thresholds are often called hard.

and ~

Frustration aggression

The next component of the package we call "fighting drive" is frustration aggression. Frustration aggression is also a form of reactive aggression that is created by depriving the dog in one of the lust oriented drives or at least by preventing their satisfaction. This form of aggression in my opinion serves the purpose of relieving built- up drive energy that has no proper outlet. The most useful drive to create this type of aggression in training is naturally prey drive. But other positive gain motivated drives can also be used. Such as hunger, sex drive, social reunification (or pack-)drive, or simply a high desire to expend physical energy through movement. When the satisfaction of these motivations is blocked, the dog experiences a sense of frustration. This frustration will reach a point where the dog reacts aggressively. Once this stage is reached, the aggression appears in the same form as all forms of aggression. Barking, growling and biting are the actions that are visible.

I made a short point during my discussion of prey drive, that a properly socialized dog will generally not bite a human being in prey drive. However, if the prey drive builds up to a certain level, and no outlet is presented, frustration aggression will set in. And once a dog is in a state of aggression, he will bite a human being.

Good examples of this model are high drive Malinois, who reach an aggressive state very quickly, because of their high drive and the fact that they seem to frustrate easily.

This is a very useful form of aggression, as it presents a much less risky training methodology than, for example, defense drive, yet still adds intensity and seriousness to many dogs.

corgipower

The one I had always been taught previously was that reactivity stemmed from fear, which is not the case with this dog. I did now find sources that define reactivity differently *sigh, back to a semantics game*. By some of those definitions, Nyx could very well be called reactive.

Often the term  is used in working with fearful dogs, but reactive can be used for lots of dogs. Usually a "reactive" dog is simply a dog that for some reason "reacts" more strongly than normal, and has a hard time focussing and ignoring distractions. So a dog can be reactive out of fear, anger, excitement, and prey drive. A dog can have great prey drive but not go over the top nuts every time it sees something in motion (that is what usually triggers predatory action). Most hunting dogs and terriers have very high prey drives, but not all "react" in the same way.

Being reactive isn't a "bad word". My Gaci is a reactive girl (or reactive girl in progress? LOL!). She is a very prey-driven dog and used to be stimulated by movement a LOT. Well, she still is, but now she is only allow to exhibit predatory actions to appropriate things (chasing toys, mice in the field, etc). Not the cars she used to fixate on and then chase as they passed. She no longer chases cars at all, barely gives them a glance, but once let into the woods will go right into trailing the next animal scent she can find.

So I could see the description of Nyx being reactive, although I don't know the dog personally. Very well could be prey-drive origins, but the reactivity levels are not what I would consider normal for any dog.

Morgan sounds a little like my mother's dog, Pyry. It's hard to make yourself very interesting to Pyry sometimes. He's not highly trained, but he knows he's meant to come when his name is called and at times he'll stop and stare for a few moments before going "nah" and trotting off to do his own thing. He's been heavily rewarded with treats for sticking around and checking in and coming when asked, but he regularly decides foraging on his own will be more fun than getting a treat.

When I was teaching Penny to heel in training school as a kid, I was using leash pops everytime she started to drift away from the correct position, as I was told to. It was really very stupid. She has always hated pressure on her collar. I managed to teach her that she probably doesn't want to walk too close to me lest I start jerking on her collar. I don't even know why I was using a check chain. I was too young to question any of it, even though I could see she wasn't happy and neither of us were enjoying ourselves. Happily, once I stopped doing that kind of thing she gradually drifted back to my side and is now comfortable walking close to me. It took several years to undo all that damage, though, and I don't think we're 100% good even now. I'm relieved she's such an easy and forgiving dog, and realieved that I learnt to question things relatively early in my animal care experiences.  

Kim_MacMillan

Usually a "reactive" dog is simply a dog that for some reason "reacts" more strongly than normal, and has a hard time focussing and ignoring distractions

I wanted to filter this statement through my own bias.

I have described, at times, Shadow being "keyed up" by something. Or locked in, as Dgriego would describe her dog. When he's locked in, he's not interested in a treat. He is focused on that other thing. The aim of my training, however, is to have him focus on me when I need him to, which requires me being more fascinating or providing a greater reward than whatever self-defined reward he is getting by focusing on another dog, for example.

Geez, when Marvin was reacting uncontrollably in his kennel to get out, I used click to calm and you said if it was your dog, you would ignore and wait for the settled behavior before opening the gate, even if it took hours of waiting.  To me your suggested approach was Punishment that I know this particular dog could not endure.  So I don't understand why you switched approaches here.

completely different situation DPU- a reactive dog is not reacting TO YOU so you can employ a "click to calm" gradual desensitization program to whatever the trigger of the out of control behavior IS. Marvin was, if I understand the situation correctly, reacting to your arrival by throwing a hissy fit to try to get you to let him out of the kennel faster. In which case, the obvious solution is to not-reward his behavior by letting him out until he was calm, or at least calmER, and working on desensitizing him to your comings and goings.

Or locked in, as Dgriego would describe her dog. When he's locked in, he's not interested in a treat. He is focused on that other thing.

yeah, that's not reactivity, though. "Reactivity" is the dog who is over-stimulated by something to the point where he basically loses any self-control and just, well, reacts. A highly focused dog is in firm control of himself.

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