Food Rewards - For and against..

never mind.  I give up.  Think I'll go feed my fictional dogs and fictional fosters their breakfast so we can go for a walk.  In the fictional woods.

DPU

Ado

Bloody hell, its just a bunch of words and just another way to train WITHOUT corrections, would you prefer that?

Oh my, I feel like food rewards and such words as paychecks and jackpots are in the same league as E collars!!!!!!!!!!!!!  Good grief

Funny, I am describing and advocating a more gentle training method that is getting closer to pure positive.  You are going the opposite way by putting forth a comparison between food and an E collar.  You see no harm in using that analogy which does not reflect your true dog relationship but there is a possibility that the idea may be planted in others.  Why do that?  There are dog owners that see their pets as hobbies, objects, and only serve a specific purpose.  These dog owners do 'trade-in', rehome, and drop their dogs at shelters.  It happens, it is reality.  I have 4 fosters in my home right now and each has a story about such an owner. 

Yet somehow you see “NO HARM” in planting the advice that it is OK to hug your dog.  Do you not see the double standard here?  This is not only a potentially dangerous position for the human to be in, but if the dog is not one that can not be given this type of face to face affection, then that dog is going to be rehomed after he reacts to this “hug” in a negative way.   This is the same fate that you are discussing and scolding others about.  I simply don’t understand and I really wish we all could be so perfect as you self proclaim.

I dont know why I even try.. or why I come to this section ever.. it is the same old BS with holier than thou attitudes, scoldings and inability to see other views.   I think I need to stay out of here again....  

Boy, did you ever say a mouthful!

There is plenty of affection given and received in my home.  There are plenty of treats dispensed for nothing more than a sit and wait until I call your name since I don't care to be mobbed by six (or 8) mouths all going after the same "cookie".  There are treats used in training.  That does NOT mean that I starve my dogs or fosters to enhance the training opportunities, it simply means that I reward them with a treat, much as I reward them with praise at the same time, and sometimes a pat, sometimes a good hard head rub, sometimes a toss of the ball.....whatever the dog particularly enjoys.

I think that certain posters are either so close minded and set in their ways that they refuse to see any value in methods other than their own, OR they just enjoy pot stirring.

jjsmom06

I dont know why I even try.. or why I come to this section ever.. it is the same old BS with holier than thou attitudes, scoldings and inability to see other views.   I think I need to stay out of here again....  

I don't see the need for such an emotional outburst.  If you can't handle the discussion then maybe your are right that its best to not participate.  This is a dog forum and not a people forum.  We are not here to better people or to change their writing styles or how they express their beliefs but to better the dog's situation.  Your track record is to berate people for the way they express their passion for causes that are close to home.  I have got news for you, your desire for warm fuzzy dialogue is just plain old ineffective.  Everyone walks away with nothing, not even a re-exam of their current practices. 

Talk about inability to see another side.  No one, including myself suggest you walk up to a strange dog and give the dog a hug.  That is dangerous.  In my postings I say there is a bonding process I go through, a long time process (which Glenmar ridicules me for and say its bad for the dog), of building trust and then having trust between the human and the dog.  In my experience with my residence dogs and foster once there is trust, all the dogs accept a hug from me, no exceptions.  That is how it is here and I share my experience.  If others view that experience as questioning their human-dog trust strength, that has nothing to do with me.  They may have even a stronger trust bond that is exhibited different from mine, that is the ability of the dog to accept a hug.  You would think that for others that are put off by my experience would examine such a thing with their dogs, rather than ridicule.

I really do wish the search function worked here.  Then I would be able to tell how often the roast beef was thrown at the dog to create behavior or change behavior.  I listened and tried this and then I had my own free thoughts.  When it comes to the bond between me and the dog, I don't want a piece of meat in between us.  My experience says the dog is happiest when affection is the reward.  And so far no has said anything to change my view other than to ridicule an idea.

I just got home from an intermediate level agility class....Ben did great even though he hasn't been to agility for 6 weeks, but anyway...

Thanks to this thread, every time I gave Ben a click/treat (a tiny bit of kielbasa from the polish supermarket near my house) I consciously thought "would physical affection work here instead?" and I am pleased to report that the answer is no, 99% of the time.  The only time it DOES work is when we have finished a run, which is actually the only time I routinely do not use food rewards but a special tug toy Ben never sees at any other time.  (I actually keep it in a drawer in my bedroom so there is never a risk of him seeing it.) 

When we were in beginner's agility, it was less about speed than making sure the dog knew each obstacle, making sure I knew how to get my body language and footing right, and we spent a lot of time repeating a single obstacle over and over again.  In that situation, I found that food was actually too distracting for Ben, so I used praise and toys instead because I had the time to do so.

Now, in my intermediate class, the dogs know the obstacles and the handlers have a decent idea of what we're doing - though we aren't as good as the dogs.  It's about speed now.  Go fast, go clean, don't pop out of the weaves, don't miss the jump.  Get it right and the high will carry you through to the next class.  I CAN'T interrupt a run to give Ben a hug even if he'd want one, which he doesn't even though I have desensitised him to them.  I CAN give a treat in a split second after Ben's weaved like a champ or made a stellar contact.  

I wonder sometimes....in my agility class, we use treats to reward the dog, but the handlers just get praised.....maybe I'd run better if there was the promise of an oreo cookie at the end of it.   

After reading all 13 pages, I think I deserve a reward. Can I have raspberry chocolate chunk ice cream please? What is that saying?  Oh yeah, I may be full, but there is always room for ice cream.

I only finished reading this thread to see if I could learn anything from it. I learned some think food is evil, some think hugs are the best.

My dog, who gets food rewards, and toy rewards and is not a hugger, would have to protest the food reward is wrong system. The last thing he thinks of it as is a paycheck. Seriously, do you think your dog(s) sit opposite you and think to themselves " Oh my gosh, we are going to work on sit, I like sit, but I am not sitting for her if she did not bump my paychecks from cheese to chicken, just not gonna do it!"??  Let's get real. Your putting human emotions on your dog. My dog does not care if it is cheese, chicken or a piece of popcorn, it is food, period. Doesn't matter if he just ate 3 cups of kibble or had a cup or 2 or homemade, or a rmb, he is going to still eat it and enjoy it.

As for hugging, I really do not think all dogs enjoy it, I know mine does not. Does not mean he does not display affection. When I come home from work he runs into the kitchen, bouncing, play bows, jumps up to lick my face and follows me into the bathroom, but if I bring home bags he leaves me to my break while he checks the food out in the bags, never know, something in there could be for him. I really could not support just hugging a dog as a reward or choosing that over food or even a toy.

So, if your dog does not like hugs, and praise is not gonna work, what do you have left to work with? I mean are you going to force your wants and needs of affection from them?, on them?, because you don't want to use food or even a toy? Not going to work here, if I tried I would get major stink eye, someone could get a painful reaction.

glenmar

That does NOT mean that I starve my dogs or fosters to enhance the training opportunities

I think that certain posters are either so close minded and set in their ways that they refuse to see any value in methods other than their own, OR they just enjoy pot stirring.

You can not say that with absolute certainity.  You can say that to give comfort to your actions only when some one like myself raises the question, do you create hunger.  We all read the postings on the scientific side but even in that there is uncertainity.  That is why my follow up comments on hunger were not addressed. 

When you say "certain posters", you are referring to me and I take exception to that comment.  I am very open minded and I try most everything that is suggested to better my foster's situation.  I come back and express my free thinking and the standard answer is "you did it wrong".  On this forum Clicker training started off as being pure positive, so simple, and no one can make a mistake.  Use roast beef is the standard line.  I did Clicker Training, spent money, time, and applied it to many of fosters.  Since the discussion of clicker training started here, we have learned that is not pure positive, everyone agrees there is -P in it and myself believes there is +P in it.  It is not easy because timing is so important, and only a couple of people on this forum actually knows how to do it.  So for me, it is not practical and that needs to be discussed and frankly I don't know how to do that in warm and fuzzy way. 

DPU, I am going to ask. And this is a serious question. No traps, no gimmicks, no tricks.

What would you do if had a dog that refused, down right refused, to have anything to do with you hugging them?

Trust aside, you would have to have that to even want it and it is a natural reaction for most people to hug their animals out of love and affection. But here you now have this dog, and even though it wags it tail for you, or comes close enough to touch you, they will not allow you to hug them, and in fact back up to avoid the hug from you. This kind of touching is repugnant to the dog. So, now what do you do.

And for the record, my Babe was the ultimate touch honey. She would take love and affection and hugs over food any day, so I am not saying it is not possible. What I am saying it is improbable for all dogs to act in this manner. Just because they let you does not mean they like it.

First, I do have a name, and I prefer to have it used over some login that I did not even choose.  If I wanted to be called Glenmar, I would not have my actual NAME in my signature, such as it is.

And, I have NOT ridiculed you.  I have expressed my opinion that bringing a foster into MY home and just watching them for a month wouldn't work.  It is not my desire, or that of the rescues I work with, to place dogs in my home, have them languish here forever and then jerk them out to "rehome" them.  In our opinion that lures a dog into a false sense of security and then pulls the rug out from under him when "it's time", and is cruel.  That you don't share that opinion is fine.

Some of my dogs enjoy being hugged.  Some, not so much.  And since I want to motivate them in the way that works best for them, since I want them to be happy and emotionally healthy, why on EARTH would I force a hug on a dog who would rather have a belly rub?  Or a piece of chicken.

You have decided that we are abusing our dogs physical need for food...that we are somehow maniupulating and creating hunger by offering a food reward.  You are insisting that ANY dog will choose a hug or a piece of food.  I, on the other hand, do not discount the need or value of affection.  However, I don't see it as the be all and end all of training, as you seem to.

In my opinion and in my experience, it is a rare dog who will turn down a piece of chicken or beef or whatever for a hug.  I use whatever works for the dog in question, and if a hug is whats called for, ok, a hug it is.  My mind, nor my toolbox, are closed to alternate rewards.  It seems that yours are.

Benedict

When we were in beginner's agility, it was less about speed than making sure the dog knew each obstacle, making sure I knew how to get my body language and footing right, and we spent a lot of time repeating a single obstacle over and over again.  In that situation, I found that food was actually too distracting for Ben, so I used praise and toys instead because I had the time to do so.

Benedict, I probably understand your post more than others since our thinking is not all that different.  Its all about building bridges to get the dog to its happiest state and in the process building a very strong relationship bond.  Food is one of the bridges and counting on the relationship is the end.  Agility is an excellent sport for the human and dog because in the end, it comes down to just you, the dog, and the bond.

You should think twice about your last statement because for me peer praise is higher valued than a oreo cookie or my highest prize food dessert.

And a message to jjmoms, from a simple discussion on using food in training, look at all the spin-off conversation.  It most definitely is a topic that should be discussed.

DPU

Since the discussion of clicker training started here, we have learned that is not pure positive, everyone agrees there is -P in it and myself believes there is +P in it. 

If that is the case, DPU, then by the same logic using affection as a reward (instead of food) would also involve -P and +P. In fact, any form of training (including teaching the dog to be more confident with other dogs, or more confident with people) would also involve -P and +P. I don't see how that's an issue exclusive to training with food.

Can we really not all agree that there is not one "be-all, end-all" reward that is best for all dogs, and that instead we need to be sensitive to what works best in certain circumstances and with certain dogs?  

Truley

What would you do if had a dog that refused, down right refused, to have anything to do with you hugging them?

Since when have not brought the good times and the bad times to this forum to share.  Since my experience has been strong and consistent I would view this as a problem and I would bring it to this forum for discussion.  I always wish to understand the dog's behavior because I have to represent the dog to potential adopters.  I won't accept the old wives tale that "all dogs hate to be hugged".  There has to be something different going on and it would be a new experience and better understanding of the dog.

I did somewhat have this experience.  Way before I came here I fostered littermates males dog name Barnum and Bailly.  Very different personalities.  Barnum was very affectionate and Baily was aloof and did not like men.  The original foster family kicked them out and so the rescue organization gave them to me to foster.  It took Baily 8 months for us to bond before I could freely touch and give the guy a hug.  In between that time, I let Baily control the touching.  When he wanted a pet, he would come to me and eventually the touching time increased with time.  So you see, I don't see how it would happen that I would never be able to hug a dog.  I allow the bonding process to take place and give it as much time as needed to be created.  As a side note, one month after the bonding was complete, Baily was adopted and I still see him now and then.  His transition to the new home went very smooth and quickly bonded with his new family.

Yes, I can know with absolute certainty that I am not starving my dogs.  I know this because they are fed at regular times whether training is going to happen or not.

As for creating hunger?  Well, I can eat a full meal, be perfectly satisfied and yet someone mention yummy ice cream (gee thanks Truely) and my mouth is likely to water...but I know my tummy isn't going to rumble.  Desire and hunger are NOT the same thing.

glenmar

.  Desire and hunger are NOT the same thing.

I created a Maslow theory thread to see if that would help understand the distinction in a dog's needs.  There was not a lot takers to discuss.  I definitely see two levels with regards to food.  Food as it pertains to the lowest need level, biological and physiological needs-basic survival, and food as a pleasure need.  From that Maslow thread, I get the impression that all needs are on a flat plain and one need is not ranked over another.  So using food to train can either be satifying hunger or pleasure.  So how does anyone know which of the two the dog has selected.

Because, DPU, their hunger has been satisfied with the meal.

I did see that thread and decided against participating.

And now, sorry, but my fictional dogs are waiting for their fictional romp through the fictional woods.  Perhaps with their fictional mom.....