Praise/affection

spiritdogs

I guess if we assume that most pet dogs are neutered, that part is irrelevant, but my guess is that, given the choice between a pat on the head and a slab of beef, most dogs would choose the beef.

Agreed. I also find that maxim to be asserted by other dog professionals who have been dealing with this very thing for longer than I have been alive. People that have tried it all different ways.

 I can't put my finger on it, but I seem to have read somewhere that a study was done that indicated most dogs' favorite flavor was beef.  I don't know if things like rabbit and pheasant were included in the surveyed foods, but I would have thought those would be closer to a dog's natural diet.  On the other hand, if we think about the wolf as a dog's closest genetic match, maybe not - think bison and deer. 

spiritdogs

I think of praise as an imprecise "marker" that the dog did what you wanted- and I think dogs think of it that way too.

I agree.  My evidence for that is that I find dogs learn so much faster when the marker is a click or a flash (for the deaf dogs).  

My understanding of that is it is because most people have better motor skills than verbal skills, so the timing of a click or a flash will be better than the timing of a verbal marker.

As for praise and affection, affection isn't a reward for all dogs. For some dogs, petting can be a deterrent. Praise can be a marker, but a lot of people don't adequately condition "good boy" for it to be a marker, and it ends up meaningless.

 A lot of people complain of being butterfingered with the clicker but I found that trying to use a verbal marker was just a disaster for me. I couldn't decide on one word that would just come out automatically and instantly in the same way every time but only when I was prepared to reinforce, and I just botch things horribly. I started with "good!" but then I started taking agility classes and everyone there says "yes!" so "yes!" started popping out unconsciously when I meant to say "good!" just from hearing it so much, and then I started accidentally saying "yes!" and "good!" when what I meant was "oh you are such a good boy to do that, thanks!" They started to become my generic praise words. What a disaster. I successfully made both of my intended verbal markers totally meaningless.

Some people may be butterfingered, but I'm butter-brained apparently. And I don't have to worry now about any kind of clumsiness now that I have one of these:

spiritdogs

On the other hand, if we think about the wolf as a dog's closest genetic match, maybe not - think bison and deer. 

My dogs, all of them, go just a little bit more crazy for raw ground buffalo than raw ground beef (both organic, grain fed, etc). It never occurred to me that this might be why...  

FourIsCompany

spiritdogs

On the other hand, if we think about the wolf as a dog's closest genetic match, maybe not - think bison and deer. 

 

My dogs, all of them, go just a little bit more crazy for raw ground buffalo than raw ground beef (both organic, grain fed, etc). It never occurred to me that this might be why...  

I admit that I go a bit more crazy for buffalo than for beef, too.  I wonder if I am more closely related to my native ancestors, wolves or dogs.

I accidentally gave Conrad a carrot piece the other day while training (he's learning "bow";) and he looked at me like I'd just given him the booby prize. I had some carrot pieces along with the food roll bits in the bait bag because Marlowe will eat anything and love it and I'd been using them at class the day before. The thought bubble over Conrad's head read, "If that is what I get for bowing, I will make sure I will not bow any more in the future!" 

FourIsCompany

spiritdogs

On the other hand, if we think about the wolf as a dog's closest genetic match, maybe not - think bison and deer. 

 

My dogs, all of them, go just a little bit more crazy for raw ground buffalo than raw ground beef (both organic, grain fed, etc). It never occurred to me that this might be why...  

I can identify with dogs choosing their favorite motivators.  We have "cheese dogs" in class, too.  And my Sioux, when she was first schooling over the A-frame, once turned her nose up at a hot dog in a target dish.  Our trainer had inadvertently placed it there instead of the liver treat I had passed her for that purpose.  Miss Sioux just sat and looked at her - thought bubble "you idiot, my mom gave you my stuff, now you take that disgusting hot dog back and give me the liver brownie".

Gaci would do back-flips for mac n' cheese. Honestly. No matter how hungry, she would go to the end of the world and back for a good ole noodle of KD.

One of my dogs will cheerfully and consistently work for praise alone. But that doesn't mean he wouldn't prefer to have a bit of cheese or meat along with the praise.

corgipower

My understanding of that is it is because most people have better motor skills than verbal skills, so the timing of a click or a flash will be better than the timing of a verbal marker.

Excellent point.

Even though I was born in southern California, I have been in Texas since I was 10 1/2. So, I have developed a slow, southern drawl. But I have lightning quick physical reflexes. So, it has been easier for me to click with surgical precision than to verbally mark it. So, for each of us, the marker may depend on our unique physical or verbal attributes.

Kim_MacMillan

Gaci would do back-flips for mac n' cheese. Honestly. No matter how hungry, she would go to the end of the world and back for a good ole noodle of KD.

Well sure and this will satify the hunger need or the snack need but then you will have to be very tolerant of the gas that results and in some light allergy inflicted dogs, an ear infection.  Praise will the satisfy the social need and will do wonders for the human-to-dog relationship.

ron2

corgipower

My understanding of that is it is because most people have better motor skills than verbal skills, so the timing of a click or a flash will be better than the timing of a verbal marker.

But I have lightning quick physical reflexes. So, it has been easier for me to click with surgical precision than to verbally mark it.

I am not buying this "precision" timing that makes the 'clicker sound' indispensable for training a dog with the +R -P method (but I also believe +P is involved).  I think way way before the sound of the clicker is in the air (and slowed down by all the air pollution) the dog has already read and received the human body language, and that body language is saying praise/affection.   If you are using food or a pat on the head as the reward, then it may be overkill or even irrelevent for what you want to accomplish.

someone actually did a study, I'm vague on the details, and the "click" of the clicker directly stimulated areas of the brain involved in emotion and memory, whereas the verbal marker had to be processed in the frontal lobes. Other people have studied dogs in training and report that on average dogs learned 50% faster if taught with clicker than with a verbal marker.  It's  not body language, it's something about the precise sharp sound.