Praise/affection

I think there is a difference between a marker and affection.  I don't really agree with that percentage thing because everything I do with my dogs is infused with some level of affection.  If there wasn't affection involved, neither myself nor the dogs would want to participate! 

I don't think they're exactly the same thing.

Praise is +R. It's something good (to the dog) you add that results in getting him to repeat the behavior.

Affection is just love with no "ulterior motive".

They can overlap, though.  

The dog might consider praise to be affection, but for my purposes, praise is when I say, "Good boy"! so he'll know I like what he just did. It's a marker of sorts AND +R. Affection is when there's nothing going on... no training, I'm just holding an 80 lb dog in my lap lovin' him up. I might even say, "You're such a good boy" at that time too, but it's not because I want him to do something, it's more that I think I'm telling him how much I appreciate him.

They typically are conditioned reinforcers based on the behavioral history between you and your dog.  Think of what you did early in your relationship.  Your hands and your voice were often paired with praise statements and typically connected with things related to drives (natural needs in the dog).  SInce those needs were met, and when met where likely paired with something, you get a conditioned reinforcer over time.  And in the situation with dogs that can happen very quickly since they are so good at associative learning.

Liesje

I think there is a difference between a marker and affection.  I don't really agree with that percentage thing because everything I do with my dogs is infused with some level of affection.  If there wasn't affection involved, neither myself nor the dogs would want to participate! 

You are quite right.  A marker ("good", "yes", click, whistle, flashlight, etc.) is a way of telling the dog, the instant it performs a behavior, that it was indeed the behavior you wanted, and that it was the behavior that will earn the dog his reward, or reinforcer (praise, food, ball, tug game, etc.).  Some dogs are reinforced by praise, but most prefer something else, like roast beef, so I consider praise to be a weak reinforcer for most dogs compared to food, tug, etc.  Many people think that praise is a strong reinforcer, but I think that's mainly because of their own desire that the pet behave simply for them, and not for food.  The fact that dogs prefer food does not mean that dogs do not appreciate affection and praise, just that survival items are more important on most dogs' list of motivators.  Sorry to say, but food and sex usually trumps pats and attaboys.  However, I find that dogs that get rewards they really like have a great deal of affection for the leader who provides them!

While it is true that you would not want to give a dog the idea that a negative behavior was ok by giving him "affection", we need to remember that there are some dogs that think any attention, even negative attention, is a reinforcer.  (Remember, a reinforcer, or reward, is anything the dog wants.) So, when you are trying to decide how to deal with an individual dog, it's best not to assume that dealing with him by "tssst", or poke, or "eh-eh", or "no" is any more effective than an alternate command, silence, or failure to mark and reward.

I think of praise as an imprecise "marker" that the dog did what you wanted- and I think dogs think of it that way too. In "traditional" training offering praise means the dog isn't going to be punished, so the dog is happy to receive praise and appears to be working for praise (when in actual fact the dog is working to avoid punishment) and in +R training offering praise means the dog might in future be given a "real" reward for that behavior so the dog is happy to receive praise and appears to be working for praise (when in actual fact the dog is working for food or toys).

Affection, well, that occurs inside your head and you can't "give" it to the dog. You can stroke the dog, rub the dogs belly, scratch the dogs ears, all of which may feel good to the dog and the dog may be motivated to work for the chance to be petted and thus experience these pleasant sensations.

mudpuppy

Affection, well, that occurs inside your head and you can't "give" it to the dog. You can stroke the dog, rub the dogs belly, scratch the dogs ears, all of which may feel good to the dog and the dog may be motivated to work for the chance to be petted and thus experience these pleasant sensations.

Wait... are you saying that dogs are incapable of sharing and receiving affection? I get that you think dogs can receive pleasant physical feelings, but are you implying they don't have the capacity for affectionate emotions for their owners?

I think of praise as an imprecise "marker" that the dog did what you wanted- and I think dogs think of it that way too.

I agree.  My evidence for that is that I find dogs learn so much faster when the marker is a click or a flash (for the deaf dogs).  

In "traditional" training offering praise means the dog isn't going to be punished, so the dog is happy to receive praise and appears to be working for praise (when in actual fact the dog is working to avoid punishment) and in +R training offering praise means the dog might in future be given a "real" reward for that behavior so the dog is happy to receive praise and appears to be working for praise (when in actual fact the dog is working for food or toys).

Again, good point.  "Happy" is relative - I find that dogs who work for something positive seem more joyful in general than dogs that work to avoid punishment.  JMHO, of course.

Affection, well, that occurs inside your head and you can't "give" it to the dog. You can stroke the dog, rub the dogs belly, scratch the dogs ears, all of which may feel good to the dog and the dog may be motivated to work for the chance to be petted and thus experience these pleasant sensations.

I do think dogs have an emotional life, just as we do, but I think that no one can "give" affection.  What you are giving is a symbol of what you yourself feel.  So, we give dogs pats or ear scritches.  We give our SO's a kiss.  We give a friend a hug.  Etc.

I believe they do have the capacity to have affection for their owners and doggy friends and possibly even familar cats and horses. But when you're talking about "motivating" dogs, I think talking about "giving affection" is somewhat untrue and potentially confusing. I feel affection towards dogs even if they are being obnoxious butt-heads. I don't pet them when they are being obnoxious, though.

mudpuppy

I feel affection towards dogs even if they are being obnoxious butt-heads. 

Maybe that's the difference between dogs and men????????  

spiritdogs

You are quite right.  A marker ("good", "yes", click, whistle, flashlight, etc.) is a way of telling the dog, the instant it performs a behavior, that it was indeed the behavior you wanted, and that it was the behavior that will earn the dog his reward, or reinforcer (praise, food, ball, tug game, etc.).  Some dogs are reinforced by praise, but most prefer something else, like roast beef, so I consider praise to be a weak reinforcer for most dogs compared to food, tug, etc.  Many people think that praise is a strong reinforcer, but I think that's mainly because of their own desire that the pet behave simply for them, and not for food.  The fact that dogs prefer food does not mean that dogs do not appreciate affection and praise, just that survival items are more important on most dogs' list of motivators.  Sorry to say, but food and sex usually trumps pats and attaboys.  However, I find that dogs that get rewards they really like have a great deal of affection for the leader who provides them!

I do understand the concept of a marker and believe me, I use treats big time when I train Selli.  However, in certain situations, like when we are in the agility or obedience ring, I can't use treats so I use my voice and between exercises in obedience I use my hands.  But isn't it true that the marker becomes the reward?

I wonder how the dogs understand prasie/affection distinction?

The dog might consider praise to be affection, but for my purposes, praise is when I say, "Good boy"! so he'll know I like what he just did. It's a marker of sorts AND +R. Affection is when there's nothing going on... no training, I'm just holding an 80 lb dog in my lap lovin' him up. I might even say, "You're such a good boy" at that time too, but it's not because I want him to do something, it's more that I think I'm telling him how much I appreciate him.

But, both times you use the "Good Boy" you are letting your dog know you are happy with him, once for doing something you wanted him to do and the other time to let him know you are happy with his closeness.

GoldenAC

spiritdogs

You are quite right.  A marker ("good", "yes", click, whistle, flashlight, etc.) is a way of telling the dog, the instant it performs a behavior, that it was indeed the behavior you wanted, and that it was the behavior that will earn the dog his reward, or reinforcer (praise, food, ball, tug game, etc.).  Some dogs are reinforced by praise, but most prefer something else, like roast beef, so I consider praise to be a weak reinforcer for most dogs compared to food, tug, etc.  Many people think that praise is a strong reinforcer, but I think that's mainly because of their own desire that the pet behave simply for them, and not for food.  The fact that dogs prefer food does not mean that dogs do not appreciate affection and praise, just that survival items are more important on most dogs' list of motivators.  Sorry to say, but food and sex usually trumps pats and attaboys.  However, I find that dogs that get rewards they really like have a great deal of affection for the leader who provides them!

I do understand the concept of a marker and believe me, I use treats big time when I train Selli.  However, in certain situations, like when we are in the agility or obedience ring, I can't use treats so I use my voice and between exercises in obedience I use my hands.  But isn't it true that the marker becomes the reward?

I wonder how the dogs understand prasie/affection distinction?

The dog might consider praise to be affection, but for my purposes, praise is when I say, "Good boy"! so he'll know I like what he just did. It's a marker of sorts AND +R. Affection is when there's nothing going on... no training, I'm just holding an 80 lb dog in my lap lovin' him up. I might even say, "You're such a good boy" at that time too, but it's not because I want him to do something, it's more that I think I'm telling him how much I appreciate him.

But, both times you use the "Good Boy" you are letting your dog know you are happy with him, once for doing something you wanted him to do and the other time to let him know you are happy with his closeness.

Some people say that the marker becomes the reward - not exactly, but it does signify that a reward is coming - the well trained dog understands that the reward isn't always the same.  So, your dog is happy this time with praise, next time with a pat, maybe the third time with a treat.  Spacing the rewards, and using intermittent reinforcement during the training process is what enables us to get to the point where we can make it through the agility course without food. 

I do think that dogs can distinguish a frequently used marker word or phrase, such as "good job" from the usual babblings of a love-smitten dogmom LOL.   And, my guess is that they are reading much more than that from our facial expressions as well.

spiritdogs

Sorry to say, but food and sex usually trumps pats and attaboys. 

You need to stop anthorpomorphising  

Chuffy

spiritdogs

Sorry to say, but food and sex usually trumps pats and attaboys. 

 

You need to stop anthorpomorphising  

'Scuse me?  You don't think that food and sex are primary reinforcers for most mammals?  I guess if we assume that most pet dogs are neutered, that part is irrelevant, but my guess is that, given the choice between a pat on the head and a slab of beef, most dogs would choose the beef. 

spiritdogs

Many people think that praise is a strong reinforcer, but I think that's mainly because of their own desire that the pet behave simply for them, and not for food.  The fact that dogs prefer food does not mean that dogs do not appreciate affection and praise, just that survival items are more important on most dogs' list of motivators.  Sorry to say, but food and sex usually trumps pats and attaboys

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