The Training/Behavior "Chatter" Thread

espencer

Maybe you could not "force" your dog to do it because you didnt know how (or you would even if you do) but your point of "not to be able" because GSD are not little is not true, you really can, a perfect example is CM doing it with a Great Dane (which is bigger than a GSD) and he didnt used any force to do it, he just took advantage of the jogging momentum, he would not be able to do it any other way

Just because someone knows "how" to do it does mean they should or apply the same technique in every situation.  CM was huffing, puffing, and sweating after taking advantage of the jogging momentum.  The momentum was used by CM to give him more strength to force Kane on the shiney floor.  Flooding did not get Kane to get over his fear.  It was CM giving Kane affection that did it.

espencer

Maybe you could not "force" your dog to do it because you didnt know how (or you would even if you do) but your point of "not to be able" because GSD are not little is not true, you really can, a perfect example is CM doing it with a Great Dane (which is bigger than a GSD) and he didnt used any force to do it, he just took advantage of the jogging momentum,

CM has quite a bit of strength. I did watch that episode. But rather than dispute his method yet again, I think we were having a better discussion on the psychology of dogs.

I watched a show last night called "Dog Genius" and it dealt with the peculiar behaviors of dogs that are unlike any other canid. Behavior-wise and of course, structural-wise, they are a world apart from the wolf. Really, the only thing that links them with wolf is mtDNA, which true evolutionary science will concede could easily come from common ancestors, as well, and other canids share some of that same mtDNA. Some of the results surprised me. Dogs are capable of comparitive logic and deductive reasoning. A higher form of thought and reasoning than even I had thought for them. Of all the other creatures on Earth, the dog and only the dog, looks to Man's eyes for cues. The experiments showed that yes, the dog can watch our hand signals but what they really watch is our eyes and they descriminate between eyes open and eyes closed. That is, they know we can't see with our eyes closed. And dogs do have memories and they are one of nature's fastest associative learners. So, the argument that dogs can't imagine or expound upon a base thought or initial experience is erroneous. So yes, they could imagine. Even if it turns out that imagination had nothing to do with the phobic response, or even a learned fear, such as situational claustrophobia. The point that I am trying to make is that dogs share some of the same brain power as humans find valuable and useful. Dogs can do things other primates cannot.

And some dogs could be damaged by flooding. It's not just a human thing. And agree that a human undergoing flooding with full knowledge ahead of time and the ability to stop the flooding exercise (in most cases) has more control over the environment than nominally a dog might. That is, the dog is not given to know ahead of time what is to happen. But they can control the amount of exposure in some cases. It could be a quick way to get a nasty bite.

BTW, we have a person in this forum who has as degree, with honors, in psychology.

I also may agree that the one psychologist you have quoted might be easily disputed and his theory discredited or disproven but I appreciate that you raised these points.

Another upshot of the show I watched is that it blurred somewhat, the line between dog and Man.

espencer

And i never said imagination gives the worse of the worse case scenario, but you imagine the snake close to you or you use the other factors, memory, anticipation, thought, etc, etc, When you see one on TV you remember how your felt before because in the past your imagination made you think on worse (not worst) scenarios than they really were, maybe you dont use your imagination when you see them on TV but you actually did before and that helped the fear to be greater

espencer

I provided a source that corroborates what i'm saying, if you have a source who says the opposite we can compare notes, is that fair?

Oh come on spence, do you really need me to tell you where to find the info on the research Pavlov did on dogs?  You don't have to "remember" what happened last time in order to be classically conditioned to respond a certain way.  Just the sight of (for example) a snake can trigger your body to respond a certain way.  I'm guessing that this is what happens with Glenda.  And you can combat that with classical conditioning, using a desensitisation programme. 

If anything, humans can use their thought processes to overcome fears and to overcome those unpleasant responses (mind over matter). We can use visualisation techniques and calming techniques on ourselves.  Dogs are extremely limited in that regard.

You're exactly right, Chuffy.

And, honestly, I'm quite pleased with the progress I made over this summer.  Last year, after the snake spottings, and early this year, I would not go down off the deck to cut my roses.  I'd not weed that particular garden  By the end of the summer I was able to not only clip the roses, but to put my hands down on the ground to weed.  These gardens are in front of my deck and being out in the boonies we have a lot of stray "stuff" floating around that loves to land in my flower beds.  I don't use mulch since snakes are said to like that stuff so it's easy pickings for the weeds to land.  It was still scarey for me to put my hands anywhere near a place a snake *might* be, but I was able to make myself do it, and not be such a whimp.  I even did it a few times without someone else outside with me.

Ron, I wis that I had seen that show....you must post an alert when something really good comes on TV!  There sure isn't much worth watching right now!

espencer

sillysally

As someone who is afraid of snakes, let me assure you that imagination has nothing to do with it--it is 100% pure reaction.

 

sillysally

I just don't want them near me.  At all.

 

Why? what are the reasons that make you feel that way towards snakes?

sillysally

There are some psychologists that believe that while a baby might not fear a snake or spider until and adult shows fear, their brains are predisposed to easily become afraid of such creatures for evolutionary reasons. 

Regardless if people imagine or not with certain scenarios, dogs for sure do not and therefore the level of fear is not as great as one coming from a human nor imagination backfire at them at the moment of flooding just like a human would do

 

How could you possibly know that the level of a dog's fears are not as great as the level of a human's?  That is a massively general statement that I really don't think that you are qualified to make.  Every dog and every human that is afraid of something is afraid of it on a different level.  Fear is not a black or white thing--there are many shades of gray involved.

I have done a lot of research lately on flooding, and pretty much everything I have read says that it should only be undertaken with great caution, and that it most certainly *can* backfire.  Even CM's comments on flooding are that he assesses the individual dog before ever trying it, and points out that it is not a good idea for every dog.  

espencer

sillysally

As someone who is afraid of snakes, let me assure you that imagination has nothing to do with it--it is 100% pure reaction.

 

sillysally

I just don't want them near me.  At all.

 

Why? what are the reasons that make you feel that way towards snakes?

sillysally

There are some psychologists that believe that while a baby might not fear a snake or spider until and adult shows fear, their brains are predisposed to easily become afraid of such creatures for evolutionary reasons. 

Well thats just proves my point once again, human imagination back fires at them, they never had the experience themselves but because the adults inflict that fear into the kid then their imagination takes charge

Actually, it doesn't.  If you read the article it stated that young monkeys showed not fear of snakes until they saw video of adult monkey's reacting fearfully to snakes.  When those same monkeys were shown videos of adult monkeys reacting fearfully to images of rabbits, etc, the young monkeys did not become afraid of rabbits.  Imagination is supposed to be an exclusively human quality, yet the results with young humans and young monkeys are the same.

glenmar

Ron, I wis that I had seen that show....you must post an alert when something really good comes on TV!  There sure isn't much worth watching right now!

It was on about 7:00 pm CST and they repeated it at least once. But it's not on today or tonight.

It airs again on December 30 (next Sunday) at 1 pm on the National Geographic Channel.

Tape or tivo it.

sillysally

How could you possibly know that the level of a dog's fears are not as great as the level of a human's? 

Imagination

sillysally

Imagination is supposed to be an exclusively human quality, yet the results with young humans and young monkeys are the same.

espencer

Therefore the whole "well if i was in the dog's place i would feel this and that" is wrong, dogs dont think like humans 

I didn't see anyone on this thread say that dogs think like humans. Some people HAVE said that they wouldn't feel comfortable doing things to their dogs because of how they'd feel in a similar circumstance, which is not the same thing at all. Emotional response transcends the logical thought process, and actually precedes it in humans.

You don't have to "remember" what happened last time in order to be classically conditioned to respond a certain way.  Just the sight of (for example) a snake can trigger your body to respond a certain way.

This has been scientifically proven - we like to think that our thoughts drive our emotions, but it's actually the other way around. Our bodies undergo physical changes which trigger emotional states such as fear. THEN your logical thought process kicks in. These physical changes also occur in dogs, which is why many (although not all) scientists believe that they also experience emotions - if not exactly like, then possibly quite similar, to humans, even without our superior reasoning and language skills. For the Love of a Dog (Patricia McConnell's book that I posted about earlier) cites the scientific research, and as I said, it's quite fascinating.

Excellent post. I knew there was something good about the West Coast besides the fact that I was born out there.

I was thinking about the whole "betrayal" thing, and I realized that it's not so important whether or not my dogs would feel betrayed by ME, as to whether or not I'D feel that I betrayed THEM - which is why it wouldn't matter if it were me using a training technique I'm not comfortable with, or someone else using it on my dogs without me there. I would still know I was responsible for their stress, pain, fear, discomfort, whatever.

Obviously, there are times when it's necessary that they experience those things - medical procedures would be a perfect example, but if there's another way to train, that would always be my preference. The question about whether it makes a difference to the dog if it's necessary or not is interesting. It may sound stupid, but I think in some cases, on some level, they may understand that it's for their own good. With Cassidy, she was at the vet a LOT, for almost two years, dozens of visits. She had chiro visits, acupuncture (which she loved), had numerous blood tests because she was on NSAIDs, you name it, she'd been poked, prodded, x-rayed, MRI'd, and mostly it was with me there. I took her to at least 80% of those visits, which were very stressful for her, and often painful. She HATED going to the vet's, and would start shaking as I made the last few turns and it was clear where we were going.

I remember once we had to take her off Deramaxx because her kidney levels had started rising. The vet wanted to do a urine specific gravity test to see if there had been kidney damage. We couldn't get her to pee on cue, so they tried using a catheter, which also didn't work, and they ended up tapping her bladder. To anyone who hasn't had to witness that, they stick a needle into the bladder through the belly to draw out the urine. That poor dog was up on the table for a long time, looking absolutely miserable, with me at her side. I also gave her all her medications and supplements at home. You'd think that she would have run screaming every time she saw me, and yet she was so patient, and even seemed to become more bonded to me over time. I don't know, it really felt like somehow she read my intent, that she knew how much I loved her and was trying to help her, in spite of what I'd put her through. She endured the procedures, took the pills I gave her, and returned the love.

There - my little anthropomorphic moment.

Cassidys Mom

There - my little anthropomorphic moment.

Aww... Poor sweetie.

You know, I don't think there's anything inherently wrong with anthropomorphizing. I do it all the time. My dogs are my kids, no question! It's just that I would never want to let MY view of them get in the way of them being dogs first. Not saying anyone here is doing that, I just want people to know that when I talk about anthropomorphizing as a "negative" thing, it's only when I feel it's getting in the way of what's best for the dog. I love to think of my dogs as my babies and imagine their emotions and feelings... but they are dogs first.

When Rusty was in renal failure, I did IV fluids at home.  The vet tech could NOT administer fluids without me there.  She showed me how to do it, and he was absolutely fine for me.  Now having to lay in one spot whle that fluid dripped in wasn't fun for him but he never gave me a moments fuss about it.  He knew I was trying to help him and would lay patiently and let the fluid flow in.  That boy owned my heart and he was my special boy.....and I like to think I held a special place in his heart.

FourIsCompany

You know, I don't think there's anything inherently wrong with anthropomorphizing. I do it all the time. My dogs are my kids, no question! It's just that I would never want to let MY view of them get in the way of them being dogs first. Not saying anyone here is doing that, I just want people to know that when I talk about anthropomorphizing as a "negative" thing, it's only when I feel it's getting in the way of what's best for the dog. I love to think of my dogs as my babies and imagine their emotions and feelings... but they are dogs first.

I agree. And, on some level, dogs are emotional creatures. When they see their human, their tails wag more to their right. When they see a stranger dog that they are unsure of, their tail wags more to their left. This is thought to also show that dogs share right/left brain functions similar to what humans have, as far as delineation of thought processes.

I think some anthro is unavoidable. We have only ourselves to compare to.

glenmar

When Rusty was in renal failure, I did IV fluids at home.  The vet tech could NOT administer fluids without me there.  She showed me how to do it, and he was absolutely fine for me.  Now having to lay in one spot whle that fluid dripped in wasn't fun for him but he never gave me a moments fuss about it.  He knew I was trying to help him and would lay patiently and let the fluid flow in.  That boy owned my heart and he was my special boy.....and I like to think I held a special place in his heart.

When Dancer spent a couple of days at the vet clinic (they watched her while I was at work), she would not eat.  Every tech and every vet in the place tried (she was, after all, a long time client and one of their favorites).  I took her home each night, and she would eat whatever I gave her, from a spoon, no less.  She lived for months afterward, and it was only when she stopped eating for me that I knew she was telling me she needed to leave.  Everything she did that last day was a gift to me, and I hope I returned the favor with a walk around the property (I carried her in her favorite blanket), lots of cuddles, and a special together prayer that we would meet again some day.  Anyone who tells me that dogs have no emotion has never paid enough attention to dogs.  They may be different, and they are certainly not humans, but I have no doubt that they are sentient beings.  I guess I don't find innocent anthropomorphizing to be bad - I am my dogs' mom.  But, I never take that so far as to overshadow the wonderfulness of their own species.  I am often in awe of them, and their abilities which no human can match.  To me, they are never less than - they are just different.