The Training/Behavior "Chatter" Thread

My aversion to training a human being like this is as strong as some people's aversion to the alpha roll. I think it's clearly inhumane to manipulate another human being, whether child or adult with marking and a treat. Yeah, it works, but I could never do it. It's totally out of integrity with who I am. And I really cannot believe people do it or support it.

I find myself wanting to say, "Yes, it works and it can be done, but have you stopped to think whether or not it should be done"?  No kidding.

but we all do this sub-consciously; what's wrong with doing it deliberately?  Whether you admit it or not, everyone goes around using (or mis-using) operant conditioning on their spouses, children, bosses, employees, etc.

mudpuppy

Imagination, who knows.

I think that is the key between a dog and a human, the "what if", a human imagination can take us to the highest level of fear, Chuffy and Glenda could tell you how wild their imagination runs when they think about spiders and snakes, when its true that the dogs also could attach thought, memory and anticipation, they dont use imagination to raise the fear 10 times more of what it should really be

Imagination is the fear best friend 

mudpuppy

but we all do this sub-consciously; what's wrong with doing it deliberately? 

To me, it's the same as sub-consciously feeling and being withdrawn and deliberately withdrawing myself to either teach a lesson or elicit some behavior. It's the difference between really appreciating something my husband does and thanking him for it -- and deliberately acting in a manner that will get him to repeat a behavior that I wish him to repeat in the future.

If my husband does something I appreciate, I'm going to tell him so -- and I may smile a genuine smile. But if my thought process is that he has done something I like and I want him to repeat it in the future, so I'm going to put a smile on my face and reach out and touch him as a reward, so there's more chance of him repeating this behavior in the future??? Yeah, there's a big difference to me.

I'm not saying operant conditioning doesn't exist between people, in fact, I have said that I know it does, so there's nothing to "admit". It's just that I don't consciously set out to train the people in my life to behave a certain way by manipulation. To me, that would be highly disrespectful.

Now, back to dogs.  

espencer

mudpuppy

Imagination, who knows.

 

I think that is the key between a dog and a human, the "what if", a human imagination can take us to the highest level of fear, Chuffy and Glenda could tell you how wild their imagination runs when they think about spiders and snakes, when its true that the dogs also could attach thought, memory and anticipation, they dont use imagination to raise the fear 10 times more of what it should really be

Imagination is the fear best friend 

I beg your pardon?  I completely don't understand what you are driving at here.  How exactly do you think I do that?  I think you think I am using my imagination and being a wimp and blowing things up out of proportion, making things worse for myself, or my dog, or my niece, or whoever.  In which case, I can tell you right now that you are wrong.  That is not the basis for my posts at all and if you want to believe it is, then I can't see any point in discussing this with you further because we'll just go round and round and round.

Well, yeah, I'm gonna take exception to this too.  I don't let my imagination run amok and make me more afraid of snakes.  I don't "imagine" the worst case scenerio and become more fearful.  Seeing one on tv is enough to frighten me and it's not because I IMAGINE it's gonna slither out of the tv and bite me.....its because it's there at all.  I'm fully aware that snakes serve a useful purpose in the overall scheme of things, I'd just rather they serve that purpose FAR away from me.

In fact. I thought a "phobia" was defined as an "irrational fear"?  I could be wrong, but if that's the case it says to me that logic, imagination, extrapolation etc etc. are not an intrinsic part of phobias.  PEOPLE can be phobic of buttons or sponges.  What are they "imagining"?? 

While imagining what might happen CAN sere to make us afraid (or more afraid) I think that's being blown up out of proportion a bit here.  I don't think that all these so-called "human add-ons" to fear are really relevant to this discussion and by the same token I do think it can be useful and enlightening to do a little "anthropomorphising".  We're all mammals and our fear responses are very similar.

FourIsCompany

A couple of things, ron. I would be inclined to think that Shadow is responding to your energy when you curse at other drivers, not necessarily the "tone". As you said, you can sing Iron Maiden and Shadow is not affected. I think it's because the feeling behind the words isn't there when you're singing. My guess is that you could say, "You are the sweetest dog in the world" but if you had the anger and frustration behind it that you have at the idiot driver, regardless of tone, Shadow, as sensitive as he is, would respond in a somewhat fearful way.

Personally, I wouldn't want to flood that reaction out of him.

I see you got my point. I could say supercalifragilisticexpialidocious and it's not the word, it's the tone. And no, I wouldn't want to flood or desensitize out the reaction to the "angry" tone. It is a +P tool I might need, if ever. So, I'm better off controlling my temper. And, for the most part, I do. If I got angry at every driver that's pulling a stupid stunt, I would have an ulcer.

The point being that I can sing tenor but it's not just a pitch, it's tone and to some extent, emotion. So, I also think "angry" puts out a different scent.

And I may have slightly derailed from the thread with no rail but I wonder at the exact reaction, that it makes him stop whatever and if that is fear and if it is healthy to have. I'm probably wrong on that, which doesn't bother me.

glenmar

Well, yeah, I'm gonna take exception to this too.  I don't let my imagination run amok and make me more afraid of snakes.  I don't "imagine" the worst case scenerio and become more fearful.  Seeing one on tv is enough to frighten me and it's not because I IMAGINE it's gonna slither out of the tv and bite me.....its because it's there at all.  I'm fully aware that snakes serve a useful purpose in the overall scheme of things, I'd just rather they serve that purpose FAR away from me.

And i never said imagination gives the worse of the worse case scenario, but you imagine the snake close to you or you use the other factors, memory, anticipation, thought, etc, etc, When you see one on TV you remember how your felt before because in the past your imagination made you think on worse (not worst) scenarios than they really were, maybe you dont use your imagination when you see them on TV but you actually did before and that helped the fear to be greater

Hey, a psychologist is the one saying this, not me, do you think that a psychologist does not understand what is going through your mind when you see snakes? 

Chuffy

PEOPLE can be phobic of buttons or sponges.  What are they "imagining"?? 

You tell me, how a sponge would be something to be fearful from if that fear is not helped by imagination?

All those questions about fears are questions that dogs dont do to themselves, they dont over analyze things, they just react, react to something that they are not familiar with, to something that gave them a negative experience, etc.

espencer

mudpuppy

Imagination, who knows.

 

I think that is the key between a dog and a human, the "what if", a human imagination can take us to the highest level of fear, Chuffy and Glenda could tell you how wild their imagination runs when they think about spiders and snakes, when its true that the dogs also could attach thought, memory and anticipation, they dont use imagination to raise the fear 10 times more of what it should really be

Imagination is the fear best friend 

As someone who is afraid of snakes, let me assure you that imagination has nothing to do with it--it is 100% pure reaction.  I see snake outdoors, I try to get as much space between said snake and myself.  I actually don't think that I've sat and imagined snake scenarios, like, ever.  I don't even think that I've had a snake nightmare.

Actually, if I have time to think about the snake I am going to see, I am much calmer than if I just come upon it.  This past summer we were down south and came upon a timber rattler.  We heard the noise and my uncle pointed out what it was and where it was coming from, and we just watched it (it was far enough away not to pose a threat).  I found it fascinating--and this is coming from someone who was literally in tears the first time a much smaller and much more harmless guarder crossed the path in front of me.  I also am interested in snake TV shows, and always see them when I go to the zoo.   I appreciate them as animals, I just don't want them near me.  At all.

I just don't find that in my particular version of snake fear imagination plays any adverse role.

You have to remember that while this may be a psychologist you are citing, it is *one* psychologist's opinion.  There are some psychologists that believe that while a baby might not fear a snake or spider until and adult shows fear, their brains are predisposed to easily become afraid of such creatures for evolutionary reasons. 

  http://www.post-gazette.com/pg/07066/767306-32.stm

Thank you.  My imagination has absolutely nothing to do with my absolute terror of snakes.  I do NOT think about snakes, ever of my own volition. 

This is ONE person who says this, not a general consensus of opinion.  I'm sure we can all find some expert to back up what we think if we dig far enough.

sillysally

As someone who is afraid of snakes, let me assure you that imagination has nothing to do with it--it is 100% pure reaction.

sillysally

I just don't want them near me.  At all.

Why? what are the reasons that make you feel that way towards snakes?

sillysally

There are some psychologists that believe that while a baby might not fear a snake or spider until and adult shows fear, their brains are predisposed to easily become afraid of such creatures for evolutionary reasons. 

Well thats just proves my point once again, human imagination back fires at them, they never had the experience themselves but because the adults inflict that fear into the kid then their imagination takes charge

Regardless if people imagine or not with certain scenarios, dogs for sure do not and therefore the level of fear is not as great as one coming from a human nor imagination backfire at them at the moment of flooding just like a human would do

Therefore the whole "well if i was in the dog's place i would feel this and that" is wrong, dogs dont think like humans 

glenmar

I'm sure we can all find some expert to back up what we think if we dig far enough.

Well like i said to Chuffy, find that expert and we can compare notes then 

Espencer, by defination a phobia is an irrational fear.  Has nothing to do with imagination or anything rational.  Thats what IRRATIONAL means.

So now you're blaming my PARENTS because I have a phobia?

Since this thread is supposed to be about TRAINING methods, not human phobias I fail to see any reason to spend hours on dial up digging up experts to refute yours. 

And, I absolutely saw the terror in Tylers eyes, in his entire being upon approaching that slick looking floor at the vets.  I could not have FORCED him onto that floor had I wanted to.  German shepherds are not tiny little dogs that you can force with brute strength and I fail to see the reason to do so even with a small dog that one can bully.  Tyler had fallen enough on that womans stupid floors to KNOW that it hurts to fall on them and his fear was based in reality.

I am terribly claustrophobic, based on being locked in a steamer trunk as a toddler. Oh, and being stuck in an elevator for 2 hours 9 months pregnant with braxton hicks contractions every 8 minutes... This is a rational fear.  As a human being with a rational mind and no patience for shortcomings, I can make MYSELF ride the elevator, do chores in tight corners, etc.  But, when I do these things I have the choice to STOP doing them if I feel panicky.  My dog does not. 

glenmar

Espencer, by defination a phobia is an irrational fear.  Has nothing to do with imagination or anything rational.  Thats what IRRATIONAL means.

So now you're blaming my PARENTS because I have a phobia?

Since this thread is supposed to be about TRAINING methods, not human phobias I fail to see any reason to spend hours on dial up digging up experts to refute yours. 

And, I absolutely saw the terror in Tylers eyes, in his entire being upon approaching that slick looking floor at the vets.  I could not have FORCED him onto that floor had I wanted to.  German shepherds are not tiny little dogs that you can force with brute strength and I fail to see the reason to do so even with a small dog that one can bully.  Tyler had fallen enough on that womans stupid floors to KNOW that it hurts to fall on them and his fear was based in reality.

I am terribly claustrophobic, based on being locked in a steamer trunk as a toddler. Oh, and being stuck in an elevator for 2 hours 9 months pregnant with braxton hicks contractions every 8 minutes... This is a rational fear.  As a human being with a rational mind and no patience for shortcomings, I can make MYSELF ride the elevator, do chores in tight corners, etc.  But, when I do these things I have the choice to STOP doing them if I feel panicky.  My dog does not. 

Phobias as well as fears can be cured with flooding. We are discussing human fears to prove that dogs dont think like humans, i dont know why you take as a personal comment to you my response to sillysally's point.

Maybe you could not "force" your dog to do it because you didnt know how (or you would even if you do) but your point of "not to be able" because GSD are not little is not true, you really can, a perfect example is CM doing it with a Great Dane (which is bigger than a GSD) and he didnt used any force to do it, he just took advantage of the jogging momentum, he would not be able to do it any other way

Using the term "bully" is a clear example of lack of knowledge, misinterpretation and assumption of the technique, of course the bottom line is that if the technique is not for you then you dont have to use it, but that does not mean that flooding is not a very effective technique at all, that works on humans and even better on dogs
 

I use the word bully in relation to my dog who was post op and moving rather happily away from the kennels until he encountered "the floor"  There was NO forward momentum.  Tyler was absolutely FROZEN in fear.  In my situation there was no way to budge this dog, hence the use of the words force and bully.