The Training/Behavior "Chatter" Thread

mudpuppy

If "flooding" is so effective, how come dogs almost never get over fear of thunderstorms without a desensitization program? every time a storm blows in the dog is "flooded", nothing bad happens to the dog, and yet most dogs get more and more frantic with each storm. Or separation anxiety- the dog gets "flooded" with being alone every day, nothing bad ever happens to them, and yet they don't get over their severe fear. 

I personally can't imagine putting a dog through the terror of a flooding experience just to "get it over quick"; that seems mean compared to a desensitization program, which is more likely to work and less likely to backfire.  Why are people so attracted to the "quick fix"?

My experience with a dog petrified of thunder was one that I could never get the dog to feel better about.  Actually, as he got older he was more fearful of it.   Maybe if I had been more aware that I could do things to help desensitize him early on in the phobia I may have been successful.   I also believe that I created it too – when he was only 4 months old I took him to 4^th of July party never even crossed my mind that there were going to be fireworks never mind my puppy getting scared.  From what I remember he wasn’t freaking out over them but was somewhat nervous and scared.  I probably cooed him and hugged him trying to make him feel better but actually, in hindsight, I reinforced his fears a time!   

I don’t remember him immediately becoming afraid of thunder or if it was a year later but as he grew older he became more and more fearful.  He use to climb in my bed and pant, try to get under or on top of anything he could.  He would calm a little if I babied him.

When he was about 6 or 7 years old, I read something about desensitizing using tapes of thunder and starting off low and gradually raising the volume.  I purchased a tape and did this every day for about a week when I realized he wasn’t afraid of the thunder on the tape.  No matter how loud it was.  I love to blast my music when I am cleaning and I think that’s all he thought I was doing…..

I am still not convinced that the 4^th of July party was what started his fears although it seems logical.  I believe that dogs afraid of thunder have a deeper fear.  I know that my dog felt a storm coming way BEFORE it actually started to thunder.  He would start to panic when he saw the lighting, knowing that the storm was coming near.  We knew even if it wasn’t obvious to us that a storm was coming just by the way Duke acted.  Desensitizing and flooding (which I did both using the tapes in my opinon) didn’t work, didn’t help.  My dog was not afraid of the thunder, he felt something more – his senses brought him that fear - something about that we humans wasn't in tune to, it was more about what he felt.  I also remember him reacting badly when there was some blasting being done far away from our home.  We could hear it faintly but he could fell it and that too would make him afraid. 

One problem with letting a dog continue their fear is that they many times become worse. Cara was afraid of my sneezing first, then it moved into choking. She has now associated me grinding pepper with sneezing, so when I grab the pepper grinder, she heads out. Also, one spice I use (chipotle) makes me sneeze sometimes, so now, when I reach in the spice cabinet, she's gone. The fear is expanding, not staying the same or getting better. That's the best reason I can think of to do something about a dog's fear.

Hello all, I will have to go back and catch up on this thread!  We've traveled to our in-laws for the holiday.  So far, only good news!  Kenya whined in her room and my mother-in-law insisted I just let her free in the house, even though I insisted I didn't want her to be in their way.  They have an old cocker that is pretty insecure and not well socialized around other dogs.  Well, it is going way better than expected.  They usually just ignore each other.  Sometimes, Sammy starts to bark and growl b/c he can be protective of MIL, but he's a very vocal dog, so it's just insecure threats (he hasn't actually shown aggression).  Kenya is smart enough and insecure enough herself to give him some space.

A while ago, my SIL's fiance was playing his guitar and we were having a sing along so I took out the clicker and Easy Button to let Kenya earn some treats and relax ("touch the button" is a favorite game for her and when she plays it, she forgets to be nervous of the noise).  Sammy came over and was very interested, so I put Kenya in a down-stay and let Sammy try.  They didn't think he could do anything, but after half an hour, he can "click the button!" and is also started on "down" (basic, yes....but no one ever taught him).  Now they are also convinced how well the clicker gives the dogs confidence.  After the clicker sessions, both dogs followed each other around and there were no incidents or warning signs.  They even shared a food and water dish.

I took Kenya for a walk around the neighborhood and met a lady with two German Shepherds so I'm hoping to see them out while we are still here... 

Aw that's great news Liesje!

I was out at a bar last night with a friend of mine and I gave her her present: Beginning Clicker Training with your Cat by Karen Pryor, and one of my old clickers too (my friend is what we all a Crazy Cat Lady in Training: she only has two cats but man does she love those cats, especially her Maine Coon mix Mingus who I swear thinks he's a dog). She thought it was hysterical but as we were sitting there one of the guys that works at the bar came over to clear our glasses and was like "Oh wow is that your book?" We explained I'd just given it to my friend as a gift and he said, "Wow, I didn't know that worked with cats, I thought only dogs could do it." So I explained about how any animal can be trained that way and that if he goes to the zoo he can watch the sea lions being trained like that. He asked me if I did it and I said yup! And he said, does it really work? And I said, yup and I talked a little about how I'm learning agility with one of my dogs. It was a cool conversation.
 

FourIsCompany

This is one of the points I've been trying to make. It doesn't really matter how YOU would feel under the same circumstances. Yes, you would both feel fear, but all the "chatter" around the fear is surely a human emotion/reasoning/logic thing and we cannot apply it to dogs.

All the feelings in your post are about PEOPLE feelings. Reasoning, logic, rational thought, extrapolation, human consciousness, physiology... all human, not dogs. Yes, fear is fear. We all feel fear at one time or another. It's part of life. It teaches us. Overprotecting a dog results in an overprotected, fearful, skittish dog.

Interesting points and I'm not just replying to you, Carla. I am still inclined to agree with Spencer's statement that is related to overprotecting in that the dog that receives affection while in a fearful state will find more reasons to be fearful because being that way gets rewarded. Which, again, proves that dogs, like other creatures will seek what is rewarding. Other times, a dog may truly have a fear that is there, reward or not.

Other times, I am mindful of a usefulness of a behavior. Example, as I have mentioned many times before, Shadow sees scruffing and pinning as mostly play, making it ineffective as a +P. OTOH, he will cower in response to a certain tone in my voice, as I might use when cursing idiots in traffic. So, that tone is useful to me as a +P. And he differentiates between that tone and others. I can sing "Run to the Hills" by Iron Maiden and it doesn't affect him. I was trying to imagine how I could flood that reaction out of him (repeating "stupid redneck driver!" over and over again ).

Shadow has desensitized to a few things, such as the vacuum cleaner and it mainly had to do with me not giving any attention to his "fearfulness" of it at the time. As opposed to structured desensitization of rewarding for non-fearfulness at various levels fo interaction with the stimulus.

Carla, to answer your question, we started with rugs and runners all over the common areas.  I think that when we first tried to bring Tyler into the house we actually threw down some moving pads, just to get him INTO the house.  Over time I removed a rug at a time and encouraged him to walk between the rugs.  But, I took it very slowly and for months I had rugs everywhere.  To me that just wasn't a big deal.  I understood that he'd been hurt from shiney floors and I wasn't in any hurry with him.  The last big barrier was the hallway to the bedrooms.  It's longish, usually dark, although I do keep a night light plugged in there, and he would stand at the livingroom end and cry.  I'd get up and walk WITH him.  The runner wasn't QUITE long enough and he'd have to take several steps on the dreaded floor, in the dark, but if I got up and walked WITH him he felt safe.  The first thing I did was to find a longer runner and once he was happily running back to the bedrooms on his own, I put the shorter one back down. Then a couple smaller rugs spaced apart.  Now, there is nothing on the hallway floor and Tyler has no fear of it.

When we go to the assisted living facility where my Mom lives, he has to walk a VERY long hallway.  The elevator is at the far end of the building from Mom's apartment and this is an over 100 year old restored hospital building.  There are several apartments, a large music room, several more apartments, laundry facilities, etc, before you reach Mom's apartment.  The first time we took him, he got off the elevator and FROZE.  So I talked him through it.  A few steps, rest and praise....I could literally see his terror of this new and unknown floor with NO rugs....but the hallway is at least 15 feet wide so not narrow and VERY brightly lit.  After about the third stop for praise and rest, he decided that it was ok....if Mom said it was ok, I can do it, and he walked the balance of the way to her apartment without hesitating.  He just needed to be sure of himself.

I could NOT have forced him down that hallway.  He's big, he's strong and when he's terrified he's stubborn.  Our way worked for him and now when he encounters a strange bare floor, he looks at me for guidance, but doesn't hesitate.

ron2

Interesting points and I'm not just replying to you, Carla. I am still inclined to agree with Spencer's statement that is related to overprotecting in that the dog that receives affection while in a fearful state will find more reasons to be fearful because being that way gets rewarded. Which, again, proves that dogs, like other creatures will seek what is rewarding. Other times, a dog may truly have a fear that is there, reward or not.

Ron, would you be willing to read what I referred to earlier? The modern research that indicates that comfort does not actually reinforce fear at all, that at best it works, and at worst does nothing at all? By this I mean true comfort, not coddling (Ooh baby it's okay, don't worry about that, with person being anxious as well trying to make their dog better). What is comfort for each dog is different, but I have had extreme success in comforting dogs with fears. For Gaci, providing comfort comes in the way of T-touch massage, quiet slow tones, and slow body-length strokes of the body. When she relaxes she also takes part in some of her favorite activities. Providing comfort is one way that can actually assist you in classical conditioning. Some people have conditioned a "Relax" cue, done during times of extreme calmness, and when used in the presence of a scary thing, can actually physiologically begin to relax the body, despite the dog's fears, so the two things are in conflict with each other.

When I took Gaci to the vet the other day, her first instinct was to bark (even though she's becoming less phobic, she's still fearful). Distracting her, inviting her up onto the chair beside mine, having her lay down, and using massage, she actually relaxed almost totally, laying her head on my chair. When people walked by, she looked up at first, then would lay her head back down. Eventually when people walked by she didn't even bother to look over. This comfort is also classically conditioning her response to people at the vet - food is not the only requirement!

I did the same for dogs who were scared of thunder and found that providing actual comfort - not coddling (they are different!) - can work very well. When my dogs are scared or injured, they come to me immediately. It's usually their first reaction. I know for many people it'sthe same way for their dogs. When they do that, they are seeking that you are acknowledging their fear. They are coming to you because you are their safety, their rock, who they trust. If you ignore that, or push it away, what message do you think that is saying? Lack of acknowledgement or rejection is recognized across species. I have had dogs who, when ignored, got much worse, because their anxiety about the feared thing remained, and now their person is also blowing them off, and they lack a temporary safe person. Simply letting your dog be with you can be comforting.

The idea that comfort enhances fears is an old one, but I really don't think it's a true one. I do think there are ways to stengthen fears, but that then is not comforting. As somebody on the Shyk9's list says in regards to comfort - if what you're doing is making your dog better, keep doing it. If it's making your dog worse, then stop doing it. Pretty simple, and this way you can find out just what is "comfort" to your dog. For some dogs it can be touch, for some dogs it can be voice, for some dogs it can be hiding underthe covers, for others it can be simply acknowledging them, for others it may be something different. But comfort is comfort, and comfort does not strengthen fears. Dogs comfort other dogs, too, just in different ways because dogs communicate differently. If we can learn what comforts our dogs in times of stress, we can then use that to make our dogs' fears less.

houndlove

I was out at a bar last night with a friend of mine and I gave her her present: Beginning Clicker Training with your Cat by Karen Pryor, and one of my old clickers too (my friend is what we all a Crazy Cat Lady in Training: she only has two cats but man does she love those cats, especially her Maine Coon mix Mingus who I swear thinks he's a dog). She thought it was hysterical but as we were sitting there one of the guys that works at the bar came over to clear our glasses and was like "Oh wow is that your book?" We explained I'd just given it to my friend as a gift and he said, "Wow, I didn't know that worked with cats, I thought only dogs could do it." So I explained about how any animal can be trained that way and that if he goes to the zoo he can watch the sea lions being trained like that. He asked me if I did it and I said yup! And he said, does it really work? And I said, yup and I talked a little about how I'm learning agility with one of my dogs. It was a cool conversation.

Man, what an awesome bar conversation. I'm jealous *G*

A couple of things, ron. I would be inclined to think that Shadow is responding to your energy when you curse at other drivers, not necessarily the "tone". As you said, you can sing Iron Maiden and Shadow is not affected. I think it's because the feeling behind the words isn't there when you're singing. My guess is that you could say, "You are the sweetest dog in the world" but if you had the anger and frustration behind it that you have at the idiot driver, regardless of tone, Shadow, as sensitive as he is, would respond in a somewhat fearful way.

Personally, I wouldn't want to flood that reaction out of him. He should be aware of your anger, but it would be nice if he didn't "take it personally" when it's directed at someone else. But to flood Shadow's response to your anger, you would have to have the anger present to back up the tone, if you know what I mean.

The other thing about structured vs non-structured desensitization. I totally agree. On page 3, Kim discussed how, as classically defined, the stimulus used in behavior modification tools must be controlled by a human. But it's clear that a dog can be desensitized by the environment or by an "uncontrolled" stimulus. It may be more happenstance and could possibly take longer, but it certainly happens all the time.

Kim_MacMillan

But comfort is comfort, and comfort does not strengthen fears.

I'm going to have to agree with Kim again. LOL (What's going on here?)

I would REALLY like to stress the difference between comfort and coddling, though. Most people think they're the same thing and if you don't know the difference (which I believe is ALL about the energy emitted) it's better to ignore a dog's fear than to try to comfort and end up coddling and reinforcing the fear.

The best way I can explain the difference is that comfort is passing information without a feeling of pity, sorrow, sadness or sympathy. In other words, comfort is simply a communication that everything is indeed all right. There is no danger here, I am in control. Coddling, on the other hand is passing information WITH feelings of pity, sorrow, sadness and sympathy. It's a communication that says, You poor thing! I feel sorry for you! You should feel badly! You should be afraid...

When a dog barks on TV, Jaia bolts up and becomes excited and nervous. I have developed a "comfort" phrase, "It's just the TV". He knows what this means now and will immediately go lie back down. I am passing information, without emotions. If someone is outside and he starts barking or otherwise "guarding", I tell him, "I've got it, it's ok." but my energy is saying  "Everything is all right. There is no danger here, I am in control."

I do think that touching is a "bad" strategy for comforting for most people, simply because if there are any feelings of pity or sympathy, they're going to go right into the dog. They're going to read it immediately. And a comfort session could turn into a coddling session too easily. I avoid touching to comfort under fearful circumstances. I will use my voice and (proper) energy, though.

FourIsCompany

he other thing about structured vs non-structured desensitization. I totally agree. On page 3, Kim discussed how, as classically defined, the stimulus used in behavior modification tools must be controlled by a human. But it's clear that a dog can be desensitized by the environment or by an "uncontrolled" stimulus. It may be more happenstance and could possibly take longer, but it certainly happens all the time.

No no, I agree with you here fully (you're right, this must stop immediately! This agreement thing is going way too far) I was simply clarifying that to use them as conscious behaviour modification techniques, where you actively use them to try to change behaviour, they tend to be done in a specific, organized manner.

But that doesn't mean that dogs don't become desensitized or flooded by external things in the environment. They certainly do, I agree! If they didn't, dogs would not thrive very well as a species....lol. Dogs are desensitized by things in the environment all the time. I didn't mean to imply that it only happened in concrete sessions, of course not.

With Gaci, now that she is learning to greet people on her own, and I have very little need to actually intervene whatsoever (depending on the circumstance, some places I do still have to watch her environment carefully in public) she's still being desensitized with every positive interaction that occurs, her behaviour and emotions are changing just a little bit. Just how with every vet visit when the vet has to handle her directly, she is still being flooded with a person (as she cannot escape until the vet is done of the procedure). This temporary flooding does not ease her stress at all at that time, but we counteract that by visiting the vet regularly where she is not handled, getting treats from the vet, etc, and to this day she still enters that vet clinic with confidence and happiness, so the flooding that happens two or three times per year by a vet doesn't make her fear any worse either. I always encourage people to take their dogs to the vet when procedures aren't necessary, just to say hello, as far too many dogs acquire negative associations with vet clinics since they only go there for scary or painful things.

Kim_MacMillan

Ron, would you be willing to read what I referred to earlier? The modern research that indicates that comfort does not actually reinforce fear at all, that at best it works, and at worst does nothing at all?

I agree with you, too, and I always err on the side of science but I always, these days, ask myself what motivates the dog. Is it fear or reward seeking? Granted, I'm not a fan of flooding and don't see much use for it and even in the case of a dog that is exhibiting a fear response to gain attention, I would rather positively motivate away from that fear and desensitize over time, i.e., change the meaning of the stimulus.

Someone asked elsewhere how can we humans know if the dog is fearful in flooding like we humans might be. I would ask, how do we know tey are not similar in their flooding reactions to us? An organism can be flooded and not get over their fear response. So, I guess another question would be how do we differentiate between a true fear response and an accidently reinforced behavior wherein the dog seems to find more and more things to be afraid of because we keep accidently reinforcing that state of mind? Notice how Glenda desensitized Tyler. And it took no longer than other true flooding examples we can think of. And it allowed Tyler to re-identify the stimulus as a good thing. That is, I'm not supporting the use of flooding but I would also expect to evaluate each dog individually. I think, around our house, we desensitize by accident. That is, I didn't aknowledge the fear. I just kept vacuuming until I was done. A number of times with no bad things and no babying Shadow turned it into a non-issue.

ron2

even in the case of a dog that is exhibiting a fear response to gain attention,

Something I have a question about is this. I don't know that dogs exhibit fear as a measure to gain attention. The thing I have learned most from dogs is how honest they are. I don't think dogs "can" exhibit an emotion so that attention can be gained. In other words, pretend that they are fearful to gain attention. If we are to talk about complexity difference between species, this is one complexity I don't think dogs have (to their benefit, and ours for working with them). As another site (www.fearfuldogs.com) says nicely, whereas people can pretend, dogs cannot. If a dog doesn't feel afraid, it will not act afraid. When its emotion changes, its behaviour changes.

I (personally) don't think dogs act fearful to gain attention. I think they are either fearful,or they are not, and they act as they are feeling. It's one aspect of honesty in dogs that I love. Dogs can learn to gain attention in many ways (such as feigning injury, or barking at the door as though someone was coming), I do agree with this. I just don't feel that the emotion of fear is one thing that can be faked. Just like dogs don't fake surprise, anger, depression, or happiness. They act as they feel.

Kim_MacMillan

I (personally) don't think dogs act fearful to gain attention. I think they are either fearful,or they are not, and they act as they are feeling. It's one aspect of honesty in dogs that I love. Dogs can learn to gain attention in many ways (such as feigning injury, or barking at the door as though someone was coming), I do agree with this. I just don't feel that the emotion of fear is one thing that can be faked. Just like dogs don't fake surprise, anger, depression, or happiness. They act as they feel.

I totally agree with this......

On the vacuuming part, I never paid attention when a new arrival was afraid of the vac, I just did what had to be done, never speaking to the dog....and soon, the dog was not afraid anymore....the dog realized it was something that happens everyday.....

VERY IMPORTANT POINT: The difference between dogs an humans when it comes to phobias says Dr Clearman is that humans attach thought, imagination, memory and anticipation of their fears. Dogs do not do these things; they live in the moment, giving them a huge advantage over us in overcoming fears and phobias

I just don't believe this. Certainly dogs don't go around planning ten years into the future, but they certainly are very aware of their past and have some awareness of the future. Dogs obviously can anticipate fear, and clearly seem to attach memories and thoughts to their fears. Imagination, who knows. It seems to me it would be a lot easier to help a human than a dog get over a fear via flooding, because you can discuss with the human what you are about to do; for the dog, it's a total surprise.