The finer points of restraint (pinning etc)

Dog_ma

does the age of the dog matter?

I will say yes, with one caveat. Some dogs I have worked with since birth, literally. Those dogs who have been worked with since birth, were held in various positions since birth. For these dogs it is not "teaching", but rather developing a puppy's brain from the very beginning how natural being on your back or side as a position might be. That's exactly how my Shimmer and Gaci were raised, and to this day they are extremely comfortable being on their back. There just was never an issue, they know that being on the back is not a bad thing.

With a dog I didn't raise from birth, or that might not have had that early life experience, I would teach how to lay on their back. I would start by teaching them the position, and being comfortable in the position on their own, and then slowly build up to being restrained in that position. For most cases restraint wouldn't be necessary, as they would willingly stay there while I wanted them to, but restraint might be necessary for, say, a medical procedure, so I think all dogs DO need to learn how to tolerate restraint willingly, for their own comfort and safety. A lot of stress can be relieved when dogs learn that restraint is not a bad thing, and I accomplish that as though I would teach most other things.

I have worked with dogs in the boarding kennel where restraint was necessary, such as in grooming and nail clipping, etc, and you could tell the difference immediately between the dogs that understood it and those who did not, or had bad experiences with it. So much stress in dogs could be alleviated totally by the dogs having been taught how to accept restraint. I did, unfortunately, have to physically restrain some dogs on their back or side, or in my lap, and it's not fun, and I felt bad for having to do it, but much like working in a vet or a grooming shop, sometimes certain things need to be done and you simply don't have the time to teach them the behaviour to these dogs as you would your own dogs, as you have a variety of dogs to care for.  But in everyday teaching, with people's own dogs, it all comes down to teaching.

Dog_ma

should the technique be used as preventative/standrad move, or done only on problem dog?

Well, I'm not sure what technique you are referring to. I don't alpha roll my dogs, but I do teach restraint and to lay quietly on the back. And I think all dogs would benefit from being comfortable in what I described above, and that all dogs should learn to lay on their back or side comfortably, and to accept restraint.  if that makes sense to you! For problem dogs though, depending on the "problem", I would use as little restraint as possible. The more problematic the dog, the more careful you are in how you handle, or even touch, a dog, in my philosophy. Or,e more problematic the dog, the more gentle you are.

Dog_ma

how does a dog distinguish between a medical and non-medical pin? Is a pin less upsetting to a dog because its for his or her own good?

They don't, which is why I would find it important to teach my dogs how to do it, period, regardless of the reason it's done. Which is also why when we are at the vet's, my dogs can be restrained by total strangers with no problems at all (even Gaci, who doesn't like strangers, can be restrained easily and laid on her back), in  variety of positions. Gaci had to do just this at the vet three days ago, when she was having her vulva examined as she has some vulvar issues. She found the slippery table a bit disconcerting at first, but once I eased her into a down and over, she relaxed.

I dont think it's any less or upsetting to a dog, though, when it's for the dog's own good. They don't get whether or not it's for their own good, so the goal would be to reduce stress from the outset to make it a normal thing for a dog to do.

I haven't had any issues with my guys because they grew up thinking that was a normal way to do things. But I've worked with many dogs that did not grow up that way, and I have found that by first teaching them the position, then teaching the restraint, in that order, it makes life easy for all involved. Sometimes you just have to restrain a dog for something, and it's good to know the dog will comply when it's needed, rather than stress the dog out if it is not used to being handled.

I'm not sure if that's what you are looking for, because again I don't think restraint and pinning are at all the same thing, I think the entire ideology behind them is different. To me, and my definition right now, restraint is simply holding the dog still/inhibiting movement, whereas pinning is a specific type of restraint, intended to stop an ongoing (unwanted) behaviour, and to attempt to communicate "I'm bigger than you, I'm in charge here" by the human. Does anybody use the two terms interchangeably? Perhaps discussing the differences between the two terms themselves would be educational.

Dog_ma

1. Alpha rolling as mudpuppy described - including body slamming and harshness. 

There is no place for this in dealing with dogs, whether it's called training, a behavioral technique or pack cohesiveness. The only way I could approve of someone doing this to a dog would be in strict self-defense, the same as striking, kicking or beating a dog. If a dog attacked a person and he feared for his life, and he could manage to do this to the dog, I wouldn't have anything negative to say about it.

Dog_ma

2. Dunbar's gentling - restraining a puppy (or dog), held against [its?] back, and massaging the pup when he stops struggling.

I have no problem with this. I think it's a good technique for settling and securing a puppy. By "securing", I mean letting him know that the handler is taking care of things; he is the protector, the one to trust.

Dog_ma

3. Holding a dog on its side for a medical procedure

No problem with this one, either. In my personal experience, if a dog is taught this as a puppy, it is easy-peasy to do it when they are adults.   Living in the desert, there are many environmental hazards for a dog. I could restrict them to the yard or I could let them run the property and explore. The latter is going to result in possible dangers, especially run-ins with various cacti. Having a dog who is accustomed to being held down makes these "medical procedures" quick and easy to handle. 

Dog_ma

4. Holding a dog on its side for behavioral reasons.  

No problem with this one, either. If a dog is "out of control", "red-zone" or otherwise dangerous or freaked out, I think settling a dog in this manner can be very effective to calm and secure (see #2 above) him. It's important to have the right energy (calm, assertive) and NOT to be angry or unsure. It's also important to perform it properly as to avoid injuring one's self or the dog.

Dog_ma

does the age of the dog matter?

No.  

Dog_ma

should the technique be used as preventative/standrad move, or done only on problem dog?

As puppies, I believe it should be done as a preventative/standard/exposure technique to prepare it for future needs. If a puppy has been restrained in this manner several times and has the memory of it, as an adult, he won't be scared when it becomes necessary to do it for other reasons.

As adults, only when necessary for a medical procedure or if the dog is freaking out. (That's the technical term)

Dog_ma

does position matter? side vs. held up, or in any other position?

I prefer on the dog's side or against my body in any position, as long as it's safe for both of us.  

Dog_ma

how does a dog distinguish between a medical and non-medical pin? Is a pin less upsetting to a dog because its for his or her own good?

I'm glad you asked this as it has crossed my mind several times during our discussions. Some people seem to think it's ok to pin a dog as long as it's "necessary", but to do it for any other reason is violence, dangerous or bordering on abuse. I have often wondered how the dog knows that it's for a medical procedure and therefore doesn't  mind so much. In fact, I would think that sticking a needle in the dog, something up it's bottom or pulling cholla spines out of its lips would be less acceptable to a dog, and much more uncomfortable and "scary" than the simple restraint, given with calm, securing energy alone... So, I do not buy this distinction, which appears to be more for the comfort of the handler than the dog.

In fact, if a dog has been restrained in his past with pleasant outcome (feeling safe and secure and settled or "gentled";), then when the time for a medical restraint comes along, it follows that he would feel less uncomfortable and fearful than if this restraint -- in a strange place with strange smells and a stranger with a long "something" coming toward him -- was his first experience with being held down...

Dog_ma

Do you believe dogs ever forcibly pin other dogs, and if so in what circumstances.

Yes, I do. I have seen it with my dogs. Especially to let puppies know the rules, boundaries and limits. It's a dominance display. It's a communication to say, "That's mine" "Stop that" "You messed up" "I'm the boss here" or any other dominant or authoritative imperative.

Dog_ma

5. Bonus question! Do you believe dogs ever forcibly pin other dogs, and if so in what circumstances.

I realized I forgot to answer this question. The answer for me is no. I have never seen a socially normal dog ever, regardless of age, breed, or size, physically pin another dog. I have seen other dogs submit willingly, yes (which is what an "alpha" roll really is in dogs), in response to alook, grumble, or body posture, in a variety of circumstances, but I have never seen another dog physically "pin" a dog. From infanthood in a litter, to seniorhood and death.

In play, sometimes things happen that are rough and forceful, but never pinning. I've just never seen it.

In abnormal dogs,I have heard cases of it happening. I have seen another dog do this once, and it was on a dog fighting video where the resulting dog died a few moments later.  This is something that seems to match the literature closely in that feral and wild canids will also not physically pin dogs unless the intent is to maim or kill them. Domestic dogs have seemed to retain this.

Kim_MacMillan

In abnormal dogs,I have heard cases of it happening. I have seen another dog do this once, and it was on a dog fighting video where the resulting dog died a few moments later

And, imo, the inferior position of the losing dog is a result of the mechanics of losing the fight. As the dog is dying, it is on the ground and the winner is still standing. But it's still not an alpha roll for correction or to assume a political dominance.

And yes, I can see an animal care provider or ACO using a restraint method or system that the dog is not accustomed to but it is truly an emergency where seconds count. such as restraining a loose, reactive dog before he/she can run out in traffic and get hurt or create an accident where others can get hurt. As opposed to having a month to a year to rehab a dog, in which case, time is then on your side. Separation, re-conditioning, etc can take place in a longer time frame. I also believe that when ACO's or vets have to use strong forms of restraint, it is not out of the desire to teach the dog or assume dominance in a social structure, it is a matter of safety, ranging from 3 seconds to a couple of minutes.

show dogs are restrained...Depending on the breed there many be a ton of hand stacking or none.

My pups are restrained (meaning their movement is controlled) on a table for 5 sec time frames from 2 weeks of age. They learn to allow their heads to be handled as well as their tails and feet...they can be lifted fore and aft and arranged and not fidget.

This is done with love, kindess and a lot of food. Some people use Happy Legs for this and for larger non table breeds that might work. But I don't care for them.

You cannot table train a dog with fear involved...they will never be a dog that you can show that way. Some come already afraid of the table because of the height...and if your table wobbles you can ruin them so care needs to be taken. Low risers then higher and higher..starting on the ground with the more inherently fearful ones.

Didn't see that on the list so wanted to add it...haven't read all posts so apologies for repeats...

Oh and Goomers/Vets LOVE dogs with this kind of training and I recommend it even to non show dogs because of this.

 Thanks for the addition, Gina.

Dog_ma

5. Bonus question! Do you believe dogs ever forcibly pin other dogs, and if so in what circumstances.

I think I have pretty much answered most of these in the other threads but I don't think this one was covered.  So I will answer it here, or try to.

I think a dog will only forcibly pin another dog and expose it's vulnerbale belly/throat if they are going to maim or kill that dog.  I think that I have seen young, rambunctious pups "pinned" - but not rolled.  That is to say, they might have been squashed down with a paw... it might have been play, it might have been bullying, it might have been a way of saying "Oi, stop that, you're getting too rough", but that was it - no rolling to the side or back.  That's actually quite tricky for one dog to pull on another dog, I think, and most won't bother unless they have serious intent.  But then, as Hagrid said in Harry Potter: you get weirdos in every breed...  Or, I could just be totally wrong about everything.  Stranger things have happened.

I ducked out of the Alpha Roll thread on page three or so.  The when to pin puppies debates kind of go in one of my ears and out the other, since I've never had a puppy and would not be surprised if I never got one, so you can take my post with a grain of salt.  As far as my two dogs, re-homed to me as adults, I have not yet needed to roll or pin either of them.  If I want Kenya in a down, I just command her to down.  If I want her on her side, I motion for her to roll over and stay.  There may be medical situations down the road where being held down will be necessary, but quite honestly I am not comfortable doing this and will leave that sort of thing to an experienced vet tech and my vet whom I trust and has had far more experience with dogs than I have.  The few medical procedures Kenya has had to have just involved her standing and me holding her jowls and whispering to her, which is my way of controlling her so she cannot bite or whip her head.  These procedures involve a hind foot, so the vet was extending her foot and examining it/digging for a biopsy.  If I was asked to roll her and pin her, I'm quite certain doing that would make her far more upset about these procedures than just keeping her in a natural position but not allowing her to interfere.

As far as using force to train and control a dog, I much prefer tethering, especially with young dogs and adults alike.  If I want four on the floor, I move out of range and turn my back the second those feet come up.  If I want no mouthing, same deal as soon as those teeth come out.

Besides a fight involving blood, no I've never seen dogs forcibly pin each other.  Coke always gets pinned during play, but it happens like this: he runs up to Kenya, barks, bows, and jumps on her...Kenya whirls around and reciprocates play...Coke rolls over on his back...Kenya puts her mouth on his neck.  The key factors being that Coke rolls himself (in fact, just last night was the first time I've seen Kenya roll for Coke) and if Coke is done being pinned, he gets up, steps back, and starts over again.  He loves to play rough but he's also the submissive.  If Kenya is ignoring him, he will thrash around on his back so she comes over and starts wrestling again. 

And just to be clear, being uncomfortable rolling and pinning my dogs has nothing to do with fear or confidence.  I'm not afraid of them or think they will attack me if I roll them.  I don't need to be able to pin them or roll them to feel like I can control them.  There's just some things I choose not to do because they are of no value to me.

Dog_ma

1. Alpha rolling as mudpuppy described - including body slamming and harshness. 

I don't see a need for this unless it's in extreme self defence.

2. Dunbar's gentling - restraining a puppy (or dog), held against your back, and massaging the pup when he stops struggling.

A behaviourist on Barking Mad was once giving advice on handling an aggressive rabbit and said that the rabbit should be caught quickly, held firmly, and not released until it was calm. I saw the sense in this advice and I think if I had a puppy that was being a cranky pants and/or running around like a maniac and needing to be handled, I might do this. I don't think it would have much effect on a puppy that is just being a grumble bum or having a tantrum or is overly tired or whatever. I might think twice if I thought the puppy was afraid, but in those cases puppies are sometimes looking for cuddles for reassurance.

3. Holding a dog on its side for a medical procedure

I would do this if necessary as well. I would like my next dog to be comfortable with this kind of thing on the off chance that I do need to do it for some reason. I'd really rather not have to do it, though!

4. Holding a dog on its side for behavioral reasons.

I've never done this and can't imagine I ever would. I'd just rather not force a dog of mine to do something it didn't want to if I could avoid it. I'm not really sure what behavioural reasons would prompt this action. I can't think of any off the top of my head that would make me consider it. 

does the age of the dog matter?

I say yes because there are some things I think are okay to do to a puppy that would be interpreted very differently by an adult dog. Penny was absolutely fine with being playfully rolled over when she was a puppy and would just bounce up to her feet again no worries. However, if I did it to her now, she'd resist and she'd be very offended. She'd give me the look that says "What are you doing?? I don't want to roll over." She cares about being in control, now, and physically doing something to her against her will that she doesn't have the physical strength to resist makes her very uncomfortable as an adult. Most puppies I've met have been totally comfortable with being pushed or rolled or picked up and handled in all sorts of ways during play especially, but Penny at least grew out of her enjoyment of that. Thus, there are a lot of physical things I wouldn't do to an adult dog that I would do to a puppy.

should the technique be used as preventative/standard move, or done only on problem dog?

Well, I think it's good for dogs to learn that a lot of handling is actually a good thing. Penny is very relaxed about me handling her because I've always touched and held her all over and given her plenty of scritches and belly rubs while I'm at it. She'll stand still while I press her tender bits if she's sick or sore, even if I accidentally make her yelp. But I would draw the line at forcing, even for the sake of teaching tolerance. If the dog has had enough and finds it all uncomfortable enough to want to leave, then I'll let them. I don't really feel like I want to force them to do anything just in case I need to do it later in life. Penny is 12 and I've never had to hold her down on her side for any reason. I'm happy enough that she would be quite uncomfortable if I did. If I ever need to, I'll cross that bridge when I get to it. I did with Kit, and thankfully he was far more co operative than I was anticipating. I think if you have enough money in the trust bank with your animal, they'll forgive and forget being held down for the odd medical procedure or whatever, so I don't really need to desensitise them to it just in case.

does position matter? side vs. held up, or in any other position?

Well, I'm not sure. It has been my experience that animals prefer to be held against your body. I have handled a lot that have been terrified if there's nothing but air around them, regardless of how securely I am holding them. If I'm holding an animal that is frightened, my human instincts tell me to hold them tight against my body. It is my feeling that it doesn't make them feel very much better, but gives them almost no opportunity to struggle, which seems to calm them. I could be wrong, though. Perhaps they do find a little bit of comfort being close to a human, especially if that human is the one that feeds and shelters them.

how does a dog distinguish between a medical and non-medical pin? Is a pin less upsetting to a dog because its for his or her own good?

I don't think most dogs can distinguish, but I think they can come to understand that a medical procedure makes them feel better if it does, which makes them more accepting of it. My mother used to have this dog once that would come and put her head in her hands when her ears needed cleaning. She hated it as much as dogs normally do, but she knew it made her feel better and therefore was quite accepting of it. I think putting a dog on its side is always going to be a little bit uncomfortable at the least for it, but if accompanied with lots of love and soothing words and strokes, I think the impact on them is less. I have human calming signals for my animals and for the most part they have learnt it means they don't need to worry. The power of those soothing signals is quite strong, especially in circumstances where the animal is not so much scared as unsure. I think whatever your purpose, if the dog was not too aroused and you used calming signals, the dog wouldn't find it as upsetting as if it was very aroused, scared, or if you just coldly did it without any reassurance.

5. Bonus question! Do you believe dogs ever forcibly pin other dogs, and if so in what circumstances.

Well, I have seen dogs end a fight by lying on top of their opponent. Does that count? I've seen it done by several dogs and had it described to me by other owners of particularly socially adept dogs. Especially when a large dog gets into a fight with a small one. Rather than use their teeth, they just get the little dog between their front paws and lower their bodies so that the little dog gets trapped underneath their chest. In that position, normally the little dog can't do much but rant and rail and quickly gives up, thus ending the fight without the use of teeth even in inhibited bites. When I see a dog deal with a small dog that way, I tend to cheer the big dog for handling the situation so quickly and with a bare minimum of aggression and very little risk of actually hurting the small dog in any way shape or form. With dogs the same size, I don't see that so much, but sometimes it does happen. I wouldn't try that move myself, though, because I don't get into the habit of provoking an attack on me in the first place, and I don't think I could do it safely in the second. As for actual pins and rolls, I've only ever seen dogs voluntarily rolling over or going down. Sometimes it's a pretty near thing and hard to say, but I can't think of a time I haven't been sure the dog on the bottom was not physically forced into that position. And I agree with Ron that it's more to do with losing the fight than the other dog being dominant over the one on the ground.

As regards the question: Do you believe dogs ever forcibly pin other dogs?

corvus

I've seen it done by several dogs and had it described to me by other owners of particularly socially adept dogs. Especially when a large dog gets into a fight with a small one. Rather than use their teeth, they just get the little dog between their front paws and lower their bodies so that the little dog gets trapped underneath their chest.

That's very interesting. The only time I've seen a dog pin another one was an adult (and as you said, a particularly socially adept one) pinning a puppy. Of course, that's the only large/small interaction I've studied. I find it interesting and fascinating that even large adults in a confrontation with a small adult, would pin them, instead of full-out biting (Cara does use teeth, but never bites down, just places them on the puppy's neck). Perhaps it shows an awareness of size and potential damage? The idea that they "know" they could hurt the small one is really kind of wonderful.

I know about the "puppy license" and I wonder if that's all part of the same behavior. Maybe it's not a puppy license so much as a "small license".

I would be curious to hear about small dogs pinning puppies who were close to their same size. I wonder if that happens...

I hesitate to join because I am a NOVICE.  I've only lived with dogs for ten years, have only raised one puppy, and basically don't know what I'm doing.

Both of my dogs came to me as adults, and they are both very submissive.  Rembrandt is 20-25 pounds, and he has always allowed us to hold on to him, do whatever medically, etc.  Theo is 60 pounds, also submissive but much stronger.  We adopted her in July and we think she's about 4 years old, history unknown although at four she wasn't spayed, was filthy and had hideous teeth. 

In trying to live with Theo, a main problem that has presented itself is hysterical barking, jumping and nipping when we come home or someone visits.  Because of her submissiveness and gentleness, we haven't used a harsh technique but have forced her to sit (I say force although really, she could overpower us if she was determined).  This after trying a very unsuccessful ignore.  I mentioned a penny can to a more experienced dog mom friend and she commented that that is 'harsh,' so I haven't done it.

Is holding her down (in a sit) until she's calm restraining?  And while I don't know about dogs, I do know about behaviorism and I realize it could also be reinforcing.  Sorry if I've derailed the conversation.

I'll also add that I had worried about the challenges of a big dog at the vet, but when Theo had to be examined she rolled over onto her back and stayed still.

Theodosia

Is holding her down (in a sit) until she's calm restraining? 

Yes, it's using a restraint method as I think we're using the word "restraint"; to physically hold down. No connotations involved. So it's not a bad or good thing (IMO), I just doubt it will be effective in teaching her self-control, which is what she needs to learn. Since she's fine at the vet, I would think Theo's issue is about excitement in seeing you or another new-comer. You might want to start a thread asking for advice on this specific issue so you can get a wide variety of input. 

I would incorporate NILIF and then work with other people coming over and you have Theo on a leash so you can have more control on her behavior. You can also have a bowl of treats by the door and have your guests give one to her only when she calms down. A very excited dog can sit. Her butt might be wiggling all over the floor, but she can sit.

I believe Liesje has the same issue with her Kenya, so you might get some practical help from her. But it's my opinion that restraint is probably not the best answer with this particular issue.
 

Dog_ma

1. Alpha rolling as mudpuppy described - including body slamming and harshness. 

 The only time I can think of that such a process might be useful is in the event your dog is trying to kill someone or something. Hopefully you have instilled some training where you would never have to use this.

Dog_ma

2. Dunbar's gentling - restraining a puppy (or dog), held against your back, and massaging the pup when he stops struggling.

 This is what I use with mine. I have taught them from puppies and they both know that settle means on the ground laying our quietly.

Dog_ma

3. Holding a dog on its side for a medical procedure

 If I need to then the settle command will also work for this as both dogs are accustomed to laying our on their sides.

Dog_ma

4. Holding a dog on its side for behavioral reasons.

Same as above and I do use it when they get out of control with play or aggression stemming from rough play. It works well.

Dog_ma

does the age of the dog matter?

 It sure helps if the dog is accustomed to the process.

Dog_ma

should the technique be used as preventative/standrad move, or done only on problem dog?

 I use it as a standard although it is most often Hektor that starts the process. Again both dogs see this as a relaxed settle position and neither are afraid of it.

Dog_ma

how does a dog distinguish between a medical and non-medical pin? Is a pin less upsetting to a dog because its for his or her own good?

 For mine they would not distinguish as the command is the same although they might be nervous regarding the medical process.

Dog_ma

5. Bonus question! Do you believe dogs ever forcibly pin other dogs, and if so in what circumstances.

 Yes I do. Hektor has pinned other dogs. When he does it he does not break the skin but he will pin the other dog forcefully to the ground by the throat. Now whether this is "dog leadership" or not remains to be seen. I think he is trying to be dominant and is somewhat of a bully (not the true mark of a good leader) but he does use pinning to communicate.

Dog_ma

5. Bonus question! Do you believe dogs ever forcibly pin other dogs, and if so in what circumstances.

Yes my Mother hounds will hold down a puppy until it is still...esp while she is grooming it.

One Akita technique when they are in a scrap with a smaller dog, that I have personally witnessed, is to use the elephant crush....which was described elsewhere in this thread.