The finer points of restraint (pinning etc)

points 2, 3, and 4  :  I don't understand why you would reach for "restraint" to teach these things to puppies. you can easily teach a puppy to lie quietly on his side without ever even touching the puppy. You can easily teach a dog to accept being handled without ever using any kind of restraint. And surely it teaches a puppy more to "wait out" temper tantrums than to physically pin the puppy?  self-control is very different than "imposed control". You stand silently staring off into space while the puppy goes into a screaming frenzy about whatever, and eventually the pup realizes he's not getting anything he wants or gets too tired to continue, and offers you some kind of quiet self-controlled behavior. Restraint at the vet is more formal than anything- hold the head more to reassure the vet than to control the dog.

MP who are you speaking to? What situation are you referrring to? Do clarify as I'm confused since you are responding to my post but not really addressing anything that was in my posts lol.

mudpuppy

I don't understand why you would reach for "restraint" to teach these things to puppies. you can easily teach a puppy to lie quietly on his side without ever even touching the puppy. You can easily teach a dog to accept being handled without ever using any kind of restraint. And surely it teaches a puppy more to "wait out" temper tantrums than to physically pin the puppy?  self-control is very different than "imposed control". You stand silently staring off into space while the puppy goes into a screaming frenzy about whatever, and eventually the pup realizes he's not getting anything he wants or gets too tired to continue, and offers you some kind of quiet self-controlled behavior. Restraint at the vet is more formal than anything- hold the head more to reassure the vet than to control the dog.

Are you going to answer the survey, MP?

The elephant crush is a pretty good term for it. Interestingly, one of the people who described it to me was an Akita breeder. Her big male did it to a horrible ACD that was put into her yard specifically to fight her Akita male due to a stupid bet made between her nephew and the owner of the ACD. I'm told that the ACD was a particularly unpleasant and dangerous dog. Her Akita squashed him and just lay on top of him waiting for him to give up. Unfortunately for him, he didn't, and after several minutes of putting up with this thing carrying on and slashing at him from beneath him, the Akita got tired of it and used his teeth. That at least ended the fight and the ACD ended up at the vets with a few dozen stitches holding his neck together. The general sentiment was that it would have done the neighbourhood a favour if the Akita had killed the ACD. Apparently the same dog bit 3 fingers off a little girl who ran her hands along his front yard fence. Anyway, my feeling is that dogs who choose this route instead of teeth are aware of their potential to do the other dog harm and are looking for a way to end the fight without hurting the other dog. Penny has had it done to her a number of times because she has lived with a number of dogs much larger than her and got up them about something or other at least once. I've seen dogs of an equal size try it, but it doesn't always work because if the bottom dog struggles enough, they can get out.

I have come to realize that many people experience many different behaviors with their dogs.....including pinning....some haven't seen their dogs do it some have.....so, who is right and who is wrong?

The ones who haven't witnessed it shouldn't say it doesn't happen, that would be calling the ones who have"Liars".....just remember there are so many different ways dogs act and do things that it's jsut impossible to have seen it all......

Hey, I have seen one of my dogs comfortably trott for a long period of time and some good distance...where most dogs would just fizzle out.....does that mean it didn't happen?

I've seen a big dog pin a small dog- got tired of being pestered, so just put on a paw on the small dog. It didn't affect the small dog's future behavior, however, she continued to pester the (same) big dog on an almost daily basis.

I'm not really sure why we care? I'm not a dog and don't care to emulate dogs. I can't physically perform a roar-bark, can't physically deliver a precise inhibited bite, or puke at will, and I have no desire to roll in rotted mice. Why would I want to try to copy dogs performing pins, assuming they are a common behavior (don't seem to be)?

desensitization vs. flooding: pinning is flooding, gentle, gradual, desensitization is entirely another thing. Flooding sometimes works, sometimes backfires horribly. Desensitization always works.

mudpuppy

I'm not really sure why we care?

Perhaps you don't care. But some clearly do. I can tell you why I care. Communication with dogs and between dogs is a huge part of my life. I want to learn and know everything I can about them. And I want to learn it from them, not from a book. So, I very much care how dogs communicate with each other and with me. If you don't, that's cool. No one is trying to force you to care.

mudpuppy

I'm not a dog and don't care to emulate dogs.

Okay. I'm not a dog, either, but I certainly think I could do worse than emulate them. I like emulating dogs. Not pooping in the yard or puking at will, but their communications. I like studying their communications with each other and with humans. I don't think they should be the only one striving to communicate with me. I want to meet them half-way. So, I very much want to emulate their communications when I think I can.

mudpuppy

Why would I want to try to copy dogs performing pins

Maybe you wouldn't and as far as I know, no one is trying to convince you that you should. Quite the opposite, it seems like you want to convince others that they shouldn't.

mudpuppy

Desensitization always works.

I don't think that's accurate. In fact, dog trainer Lee Charles Kelley says this:

Most behavioral problems are caused by this increase in the dog’s underlying nervous or emotional tension; the dog simply doesn’t know what else to do with his energy, how to use it safely. That’s why techniques like desensitization, which are actually designed to reduce the dog’s energetic output, don’t work very often to solve behavioral issues, and why things like playing tug, and giving the dog release of tension through play, almost always work (unless there’s an underlying physiological condition, and play therapy sometimes works even then).
...
I’m actually not against using treats, or prescribing desensitization (on the off-chance that it might work, since it does about 15% of the time).

Desensitization and flooding are just 2 psychotherapeutic techniques. They both work sometimes, but neither works all the time. And neither is inherently better than the other. It all depends on the situation, in my opinion, as to which will be more effective and less traumatic.

FourIsCompany

I don't think that's accurate. In fact, dog trainer Lee Charles Kelley says this:

Ah, good old LCK....an interesting fella. I've spoken to him before, and have been on a few groups with him for a long time. He's got some zany ideas, but some interesting ideas as well. I've learned a lot from some of his ideas, and other things would leave anybody scratching their heads going "whaa?".  He's one of those guys where you have to take and leave what you need, as some of his ideas would blow all of you out of the water, I promise. ;-) He is another guy who's truly one-of-a-kind. He totally thrashes the dominance fallacy, and has a theory how everything in a dog relates to the build-up and release of tension, and how everything links back to the prey drive of the dog. Some of his stuff is interesting reading, not sure how much of it is accurate, I take and leave what I like, but it's a good read anyhow (this is a man who is a fictional author by career, who writes about dog trainers, so he can word anything to sound nice, whether or not any given person feels it is accurate).

But in terms of his feelings on the "positive" movement, he is like many others who thinks it doesn't work. To each his own, but of course anybody who actually USES these techniques correctly knows that, barring genetic difficulties and physiology, something like desensitization can work each and every time too. Some people just give up too soon because it is "not" a fast process. He doesn't have a true understanding of desensitization because it is not inherently designed to reduce energetic output at all, but to reduce the negative feelings to a stimulus. I have used desensitization by using toys, tug, and play as pat of that process. And those things are all energy-releasing events.

 He's a really interesting guy though, but he is a very difficult man to communicate with in person,  as his human-communication skills are a little less developed than his overall writing skills (he was recently kicked off a well-respected list because of this. It's unfortunate, but it was causing a lot of problems on the list and the group was going downhill because of it).

Interestingly, he has a whole section on his hatred for the Alpha/dominance stuff on his site, it's worth a read for sure:

http://www.leecharleskelley.com/#tip (scroll down a bit until you see the title "Myth of Alpha";)

Oooh, I have to get a hold of that book by Behan.

Lately I've been working to get Sasha to be more attentive on walks, and to stop pulling. She's not a major league puller, just an occasional one, but when she pulls she acts like I don't exist. She can't pull me along, but it annoys me. Most of the time her pulling relates to a smell she just HAS to get to.  I've done a little work with food, a little work with praise, but the *most* effective way to get her to pay attention to me is to give reward her with a nod and we both start running like crazy.  It is a joyful, playful burst. She really responds to that energy.

Dog_ma

I've done a little work with food, a little work with praise, but the *most* effective way to get her to pay attention to me is to give reward her with a nod and we both start running like crazy.  It is a joyful, playful burst. She really responds to that energy.

 

That's a great way to look at relating with dogs. :-) I work this way with ALL of my guys.

Dogs will let you know what is most reinforcing to them. Even better, dogs will let you know what is reinforcing to them at that moment.

Food is a great reinforcer, as it's a primary reinforcer and necessary for survival. But if a dog isn't hungry, or if it prefers something else at that moment, then it's not as exciting as, say, a good chase or a good game of tug. What is a reinforcer at one moment, is not necessarily a reinforcer for another moment, or circumstance. Really interesting discussions could be made on what makes good reinforcers.

I try really hard to listen to my guys to know what is most reinforcing to them at that time. Whether it's a good run, a good game of "catch me if you can", a good chase (Gaci LOVES to chase, it's the inborn hunter in her, and she'd chase things for hours if you let her, - that is, things that I "let" her chase, that I throw), a good game of tug, a quiet rub, or a quick treat, or a combination of all of those things. You know you have a true relationship when you are able to know what is most reinforcing to a dog at that moment, rather than relying on only one or two ways to tell your dog what he/she just did was great (or none at all, and assuming that because you aren't punishing something, all is well, in the case of some teachers).

Gaci loves food, and she'll do darn near anything for food. But she'll also do darn near anything for tug, especially if it's tug with a rope toy. For her, simply sending her out to run free is also hugely rewarding for her, to go and hunt and dig and play as a dog.She also loves to run WITH me, and chase me, or play "kick the ball" where I kick it and then we run to it together, to kick it again to another location. It really makes the reward strong because we are interacting together, I am doing as she is, and her as I, there is a connection that occurs as a result of that that really builds a relationship, which truly fits in to the social needs of dogs (for most dogs, not all by any means) working together with their partners.

For Shimmer, she also loves food (Schnauzers come innately as food-lovers....lol), but another thing that she thrives on is human acceptance. She is a dog that truly cares of what her people think of her. She has very little interest in tug, so it wouldn't be a huge natural reinforcer for her. She likes to chase, but not as much as Gaci does. What she really loves is simply human acceptance - so for her it's a lot of touch, voice, and simply acknowledging that she did something well. Whereas Gaci likes to be touched, but for her it's "Sheesh mom, I don't need a pat on the back right now, throw that toy!".

Knowing what your dog truly enjoys is a huge key in working with any behaviour. And indeed play training is one of the best ways to teach, dogs learn a lot through social interaction, which is one reason using a clicker tends to be very successful, as everything is a game in clicker teaching, it's all fun, and the dog is totally engaged with its entire being. It's also why rewards such as free running (not forced exercise, but sheer free running, if not off-leash than at least on a long line), and tug, and social interaction work so well, because they truly innately tap into it. It's why I use a lot of play in teaching as well, when the opportunity arises.

Kim_MacMillan

Dogs will let you know what is most reinforcing to them. Even better, dogs will let you know what is reinforcing to them at that moment.

Food is a great reinforcer, as it's a primary reinforcer and necessary for survival.....

I try really hard to listen to my guys to know what is most reinforcing to them at that time. Whether it's a good run, a good game of "catch me if you can", a good chase (Gaci LOVES to chase, it's the inborn hunter in her, and she'd chase things for hours if you let her, - that is, things that I "let" her chase, that I throw), a good game of tug, a quiet rub, or a quick treat, or a combination of all of those things. You know you have a true relationship when you are able to know what is most reinforcing to a dog at that moment, rather than relying on only one or two ways to tell your dog what he/she just did was great (or none at all, and assuming that because you aren't punishing something, all is well, in the case of some teachers).....

Knowing what your dog truly enjoys is a huge key in working with any behaviour. And indeed play training is one of the best ways to teach, dogs learn a lot through social interaction, which is one reason using a clicker tends to be very successful, as everything is a game in clicker teaching, it's all fun, and the dog is totally engaged with its entire being. It's also why rewards such as free running (not forced exercise, but sheer free running, if not off-leash than at least on a long line), and tug, and social interaction work so well, because they truly innately tap into it. It's why I use a lot of play in teaching as well, when the opportunity arises.....

Too often humans engineer the reinforcers "at the moment".  Reaching way low to the dog's basic survival needs seems to me an easy way to get quick results at the expense of trust, creating a unhealthy survival dependency that goes unnoticed by the humans.  Why not use water?  Maybe because that seems to be on the verge of cruelity or is too much of an inconvenience for the human. I mostly like to use affection and social interaction as the reinforcers as described above.

DPU, whatever you're using as a positive reinforcer has to be something you're willing to withhold from the dog if the dog doesn't behave as desired. Using food on a starving dog would be inappropriate; however, using food with a well-fed dog, fine. Dogs can go for days without food with no adverse effect, and most of todays over-fed dogs would probably be better off without getting that treat- I never feel bad about keeping the treats in my pocket until next time.  Water, well, dogs can drop dead pretty quickly without water, which is why I personally am not comfortable using it as a reinforcer. Same with air- some people are willing to choke a dog and offer air in exchange for compliance, but I am not willing to do so. Nor am I willing to offer "freedom from restraint" as a reinforcer, because I want my dogs to always associate my touch with pleasure, not unpleasant restraint.