corvus
Posted : 12/3/2007 3:03:01 PM
I wouldn't do something to a dog that might have a damaging effect on our relationship just to see if the dog truly was going to hate it or not. If I don't need to do an alpha roll/pin, then I'm certainly not going to risk doing one in the interests of 'asking' my dog if he likes it or not. I don't need to take drugs to decide whether the fun bit is more important to me than the being sick bit. That's central to my approach to all animals. I just don't try things they might not like unless I feel I have no other choice. I don't think that means I know nothing about the methods I've decided not to try. I have made a conscious decision about them at some point, and I have my reasons why I don't want to use them. That makes for valid discussion.
I'm still vaguely confused about what people are aiming to do when they roll or pin a dog. Does everyone only do it once or twice when the dog is a pup like Carla? Carla, would you do it to adult dogs that come into your home?
If we're calling it a puppy pin, now, I would say I've done that on occasion. My mother's previous Shiba X Vallhund pup had some serious anger issues. Sometimes when I was playing with him or trying to pick him up to remove him from some trouble he was getting up to, he would start snarling and carrying on, struggling and twisting around to bite me quite hard. I pinned him between the shoulder blades once out of sheer instinct and desperation to save my fingers from his nasty puppy teeth and he settled down almost at once and showed my delicate skin a bit more respect for a while afterwards. I think that action is interpreted in a similar way to an adult dog squashing a pup with nose or paw when they get too rambunctious. I think in those cases where a puppy is being particularly obnoxious, a stronger aversive sends the message loud and clear that this behaviour will not be tolerated. That Shiba cross pup is the only one I've ever done it to, though. No other puppy I've had anything to do with has been so horribly obnoxious with the snarling and the deliberately hard bites. As it turns out, the Shiba cross, despite going through CGC and being thoroughly socialised as a youngster, ended up diagnosed by a behaviourist with every kind of aggression under the sun. The only ones he wasn't a threat to were the people he lived with, who he never challenged.
I would use the pin again, but only on a puppy that doesn't know the rules yet, and only on a puppy that needed a stronger message than getting up and walking away. I wouldn't do it on an adult dog, because I think it likely that it means something different to an adult dog. My reasoning for that is that there is rarely such size disparity between 2 adult dogs that one can just squash the other with nose or paw. Whenever I've seen those kind of interactions, it has been accompanied by aggressive signals, whereas when I've seen adult dogs do it to puppies, it's a casual, relatively gentle thing often accompanied by nothing more serious than a grumble from the adult dog if that. I think it's important that pinning is an aggressive thing in adult dogs and what I can only describe as a calm correction in puppies, even though I quite dislike the term 'calm correction'.
So when all is said and done, I accept pinning in puppies when less aversive messages don't communicate enough. I would do it with the purpose of immobilising an aggressive puppy and showing it that aggressive displays are NOT accepted in this family and not only do they not get you what you wanted, but they get you punishment. It didn't help the aggressive puppy we had much in the end, because he still ended up labelled dominant-aggressive, but for all I know, he could have been ruling the house with aggression if that tendency for aggressive displays had been tolerated as a pup. He never challenged his human family, even when he grew up and turned on Penny. Of course, puppies are growly critters and you have to know where to draw the line between growly talk and real aggression. Most puppies bite too hard a bit when they are still learning, and that can usually be fixed with nothing worse than a yelp and turning away. The Shiba cross puppy was deliberately biting hard when someone dared to thwart him. That's a world of difference, and I don't think aggressive puppies are at all common.
Lastly, I wouldn't pin an adult dog because it's an aggressive move in adult dogs, from what I've seen. Even with a large size disparity, aggression is evident, IME. I don't want to get into physical arguments with an adult dog, regardless of how good our relationship is. And I'm yet to meet an adult dog, even one that hasn't been trained ever, that needs such a strong message as a pin. Maybe they exist out there, but I'll leave those ones to the professionals.