The Alpha Roll--purpose and effectiveness?

Thanks for posting the videos Carla.  

In the first clip, I found it hard to read what was going on... Cara play-bowed at one point and you can't actually see the roll/pin on the clip.  In the second it didn't look like an "alpha roll".  The other dog was "pinned" but not on his back or side  (from what I can see) .  I'll have another look though.

corvus

Well, this is all very interesting. I'm more confused about alpha rolling than I've ever been. I'm hearing that alpha rolling is done in a calm way, and yet, when a dog rolls another, it's usually in a an aggressive display? I don't understand what the outcome is supposed to be when a person does it. If it's not an aggressive display, than what is it? And seeing as in dogs it does seem to be aggressive, assuming for a moment that it is what people have described, then if you do something similar to a dog without aggression, is it still an alpha roll? Doesn't taking the aggression out of it make it something different?

I admit I have never thought of it this way before, but thats really interesting.  It kind of reinforces the suspicion I have in my mind... that none of us really KNOW how the dog interprets this.  More than a slight possibility of it being construed as aggression from another species, linked to entirely the wrong thing and having adverse side effects, all things considered, I don't see the attraction TBH. 

Chuffy

Cara play-bowed at one point

That was Mia that play bowed there at the end. Not Cara. 

Sorry!  I Was just going to go back and edit that after re-watching the clip.  I knew I'd got it wrong!  You shouldn't have so many!

corvus

The people that say they alpha roll don't actually do anything that the people who say they don't like alpha rolls would consider an alpha roll. And the folks that say they've seen dogs alpha roll other dogs are presenting their proof, which is interpreted as proof that dogs DON'T alpha roll to the people that believe they don't. I don't think that will ever be settled.

I love this so much, I wish I could give you stars for it. I can just read it over and over again and smile every time! Thank you! 

And Chuffy, no problem. I get them confused sometimes, too!  

well, let's think about how the dog MIGHT interpret it, whether using the real alpha roll or the new-age touchy feely method of holding the dog on his side. Let's see. You're applying an aversive to the dog until the dog stops stuggling. You're negatively reinforcing the dog for lying quietly. Wow. How exciting. If, and this is the big IF, the dog feels being held to be mildly aversive, this would be a rather clumsy method of teaching a dog to lie on his side- clumsy because it would be rather difficult to fade out the reinforcer, seeing as how it's such a big part of the entire behavior. Now, many dogs actually enjoy being man-handled, and these dogs probably think you're just playing a game or giving them pleasant attention- could be a big problem if you're attempting to use the pin as a punishment for something the dog just did. Other dogs find being pinned incredibly aversive, and these dogs probably learn only that you are a scary person.

In our obedience class where puppies were routinely alpha-rolled many of the owners really like the primary result- the puppy became very subdued for a period of time after the roll. Which sadly most of the owners, including myself, confused with being "calm and submissive".

mudpuppy

well, let's think about how the dog MIGHT interpret it, whether using the real alpha roll or the new-age touchy feely method of holding the dog on his side. Let's see. You're applying an aversive to the dog until the dog stops stuggling. You're negatively reinforcing the dog for lying quietly. Wow. How exciting. If, and this is the big IF, the dog feels being held to be mildly aversive, this would be a rather clumsy method of teaching a dog to lie on his side- clumsy because it would be rather difficult to fade out the reinforcer, seeing as how it's such a big part of the entire behavior. Now, many dogs actually enjoy being man-handled, and these dogs probably think you're just playing a game or giving them pleasant attention- could be a big problem if you're attempting to use the pin as a punishment for something the dog just did. Other dogs find being pinned incredibly aversive, and these dogs probably learn only that you are a scary person.

What comes to mind is giving a dog a bath in a tub.  Either the dog settles down, gets use to it and likes it, or the dog puts up a struggle, always.  If the dogs struggles, I don't end up being a scary person.  The relationship just moves on afterwards.

DPU

mudpuppy

well, let's think about how the dog MIGHT interpret it, whether using the real alpha roll or the new-age touchy feely method of holding the dog on his side. Let's see. You're applying an aversive to the dog until the dog stops stuggling. You're negatively reinforcing the dog for lying quietly. Wow. How exciting. If, and this is the big IF, the dog feels being held to be mildly aversive, this would be a rather clumsy method of teaching a dog to lie on his side- clumsy because it would be rather difficult to fade out the reinforcer, seeing as how it's such a big part of the entire behavior. Now, many dogs actually enjoy being man-handled, and these dogs probably think you're just playing a game or giving them pleasant attention- could be a big problem if you're attempting to use the pin as a punishment for something the dog just did. Other dogs find being pinned incredibly aversive, and these dogs probably learn only that you are a scary person.

What comes to mind is giving a dog a bath in a tub.  Either the dog settles down, gets use to it and likes it, or the dog puts up a struggle, always.  If the dogs struggles, I don't end up being a scary person.  The relationship just moves on afterwards.

 

But does the dog think you are going to drown him?

Going back to the OP, the "hot debate" IMO, springs from the fact that when a dog resists this, we don't know if he simply really dislikes it or if he really does think you are going to seriously injure or maybe even kill him.

I Used to HATE having my hair brushed by my mum.  It didn't make her a scary person, I just made a fuss when I had my hair done and then tings were fine afterwards - we moved on.  But if my mum had pulled a gun on me?  Different story.  And how do you know that ISN'T how the dog could see it? 

And what about if Mum had calmly held me against the wall with her hand round my neck "to calm me down" in the middle of a tantrum...?   Very different to holding a child against you in a firm hug to stop them kicking and biting and screaming.... but which does the DOG see?  The wall, or the hug?  And how can you KNOW?

Of course, we're all confused! LOL

Here's another way a dog might interpret it. Nah, never mind. Psyche! LOL

Anyway, I'll just say that it's not about teaching a dog to lie on its side so your "clumsy" argument is in the crapper. If I want my dog to lie on his side, all I have to do is tell him to. My dogs absolutely know when I'm playing and when I'm not, so I can't speak for other people and their dogs, but that's not the case here. I am practiced in producing the desired energy with my touch so my dogs definitely know the difference between a touch of play and a touch of correction. And my dogs aren't in the least afraid of me. And finally, I can't speak to your classes, but what I do is not about subduing a dog for a period of time or subduing them at all. It's about setting up the structure of the relationship. It's about preparing for the future of our bond. It's so that, 2 years down the road, I don't have to keep him in a crate or dog-proof my house or walk into a room where he's gotten a chicken off the counter or worry about him chewing up a couch or shredding the curtains or pooping in the house or killing a cat or another dog and on and on...

I realize that people don't understand and/or approve of what I do. Fortunately, I don't need the approval and I can't really think of a reason why it would be important to me that you understand. As I said before, those who could possibly understand and accept it, already do.  

FourIsCompany

It's about setting up the structure of the relationship. It's about preparing for the future of our bond.

I am not really getting where you are coming from because you have refrained from giving details.  Is it like mudpuppys description, purely in that it is a preventative measure, rather than a response to undesired behaviour?

FourIsCompany

It's so that, 2 years down the road, I don't have to keep him in a crate or dog-proof my house or walk into a room where he's gotten a chicken off the counter or worry about him chewing up a couch or shredding the curtains or pooping in the house or killing a cat or another dog and on and on...

Pinning the dog as a puppy does all that?!  Gosh. 

OK I know that sounds iffy.... but I am not sure how to express how this reads to me.  I am sure you are doing your best but it's just not making sense to me unfortunately!  There is much more to it than the pining, isn't there?  And I *suspect* that the pinning is SUCH a small part of it all to be practically irrelevant?  Pure speculation...

It's not about understand or approving of what you do, for me personally.  I mean, you're half the world away, what difference does it make to either if us??   But I am guessing that you TRAIN your dogs in a number of ways and THAT is what build your relationship and prevents bad behaviour.... not a combination of preventative pinning and wishing. 

It's about setting up the structure of the relationship.

interesting.So you feel that your relationship with your dogs is based entirely on force and submission. If you hadn't "shown them you were the boss" by holding them down, they'd steal chicken off the counter and blatantly disobey your commands? 

my dogs don't steal chicken off the counter and they've never been held down or even corrected.

Some once posted here about a section of their old book that detailed striking the dog with a hand as well, they put the excerpt up for us to look at. They had some stuff to address lol.

I am sure the old copies of the book can be found at places like Half Price Books or used books stores...some Libraries probably have some hanging around, too.

MP is right..it was a maintenence thing done routinely thruout the day.

Chuffy

I Used to HATE having my hair brushed by my mum.  It didn't make her a scary person, I just made a fuss when I had my hair done and then tings were fine afterwards - we moved on.  But if my mum had pulled a gun on me?  Different story.  And how do you know that ISN'T how the dog could see it?

mudpuppy

well, let's think about how the dog MIGHT interpret it, whether using the real alpha roll or the new-age touchy feely method of holding the dog on his side.

Yes, when it comes to physically handling dogs, the emotional anthropomorhizing is at it's peak. It seems to be taken for granted that we already do many things to our dogs which may seem/feel quite dangerous/threatening:

disperse kibble in a bowl

collars / leashes / harnesses

locked doors and gates / fences / kennels / crates

grooming

vet /dentist visits

obedience 

etc.

Rather than imagine what kinds of treatment MIGHT result in which kind of presumed "emotional damage", why not just "ask the dog"? (Reasoning that the dog's being trained to dislike laying on her side is theoretical hogwash, and doesn't bear out in practice.) You're welcome to come put Ixa on her side, so you can see for yourself what the result is. Oh, but you and I will practice on each other first, calmly ... I don't want anyone handling my dog improperly or emotionally.

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why not just "ask the dog"? (Reasoning that the dog's being trained to dislike laying on her side is theoretical hogwash, and doesn't bear out in practice.)

who said that?   Holding a dog down and then removing the hold when the dog stops struggling (the dog stops the aversive by his behavior) is simply put using negative reinforcment to encourage the dog to lie quietly on his side. It doesn't teach the dog to dislike lying on his side, it encourages to the dog to lie quietly on his side more often in future. A valid training method. If you wanted to continue the training, you'd put it on some kind of cue and gradually fade out the use of the reinforcement, just like any other kind of training. It's not how I would go about teaching a dog to lie quietly, mostly because I can imagine having difficulty in fading the reinforcement- it's a lot easier to conceal whether or not you have a treat than it is to conceal whether or not you're going to hold the dog down.

Now, the original alpha roll, the one intended solely to convince the puppy you are the boss, I have watched enough dogs have it inflicted on them to tell you that its primary impact on the puppy was to subdue the puppy for a period of time after the act. After repeated actions, you observed the dog learning a cued behavior- owner touches dog's scruff, dog performs the desired behavior. Like any other trick you might teach a dog, like an instant drop, and no more emotionally charged than any other trick.