Had my German Shepherd for 2 years....starting to act aggressive.

Sheba was certainly aware.  She never relaxed enough NOT to be aware.  That is why I needed to be vigilant and see the dog first, pause a beat, talk to her, and then do an about face, before she got uncomfortable enough to react.

It isn't a quick and easy process, but the rewards are really, really worth all the work.

DPU

Do both of you assume the dog is always aware of the presence of the trigger?

That's a good question. Desensitizing while the dog "is aware of the trigger" is one thing. Yes, it's a slow and cumulative process. And what you've done is condition and desensitize to that situation (i.e., leash walking, or obedience class). That's a good thing, a good first step!

But, for myself, I need more than that, I need a dog that can handle the unexpected, who can handle proximity when she isn't aware of the trigger until it's in her face or plowing into her in a playful accident. But then, my dog spends time at dog daycare, and I like to take her with me to a variety of social situations in which I want her to be safe and reliable ... regardless of the unanticipated stuff that comes up.

This means, not only desensitizing the dog to known triggers, but also to handling surprises. Desensitizing to surprise requires ... exposure to surprise events. While you' manage situation as best you can, you are opened up to the risk of confrontation, and if you don't know how to handle a confrontation, your dog will have a poor experience, and you'll condition the wrong outcome.

This is why moving beyond "scaredy dog" style CC&D is important, and also why it's important to work with a professional to get your own handling skills up to speed.

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If the OP only needs stress-free leash walking, then controlled leash work is good enough to manage the situational issue. But if the OP needs more reliability, I'd recommend more immersion with other dogs, in the presence of a professional.

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Houndlove, Leslie McDevitt's sounds good, I didn't see the title, what is it?

Cassidys Mom

When I have more time I'll start a thread about her issues and post a few pics - I have some that I took exactly 3 months from the day she died with my hubby's cousin's toddler. You can also see how her body has shrunken into itself in those pics - she had turned 4 years old a month before, and looked three times that old.

Thanks and  

It was back a page or so, so am guessing that you missed the part where I said that I had worked with a behavorialist.

Sheba is rock solid now, regardless of what we bump into, and I firmly believe its because we took things slowly.

Leslie McDevitt's book is called "Control Unleashed" and I do sort of see it as the next step up from Ali Brown's work.  The work done in Control Unleashed is I think best for the dog who's already been through enough rehab that their reactivity is dialed down to manageable levels, but who are still clearly not confident and calm enough to do advanced work in the presence of their triggers.

For anyone interested in pursuing it, I would read both Scaredy Dog and Control Unleashed first, before you begin. There are many excellent ideas for people just starting out contained in Control Unleashed even though it presupposes a more "advanced" dog, and it's also valuable to know what your next steps are going to be and tailor your first steps accordingly.  You can tweak the beginning steps for rehab found in Scaredy Dog a little bit if you know that your next steps are going to be from the Control Unleashed program.

Your stated assumption is incorrect. And you risk ending up with a dog that is impeccable in the controlled, slow approach, but is unequipped to handle real-world surprises. 

uh, no, when you are done the dog is fully equipped to handle real-world surprises. You have taught the dog a new "default" behavior when exposed to the trigger- to calmly look at mom. So when you come around the corner and six barking poodles on flexis mob you, your dog calmly looks at mom and you calmly get your dog away from the poodles. The only reason you poo-poo these programs is you gave up at stage I instead of working through the entire program. They aren't easy.They take time and patience and a lot of work. Right now a lady with a leash-reactive cocker is in, oh, stage III of the program, and every night she comes to our dog training club and exposes her dog to multiple strange dogs and works on her default behaviors- and she will succeed. Every night her dog is doing better.

mudpuppy

Your stated assumption is incorrect. And you risk ending up with a dog that is impeccable in the controlled, slow approach, but is unequipped to handle real-world surprises. 

uh, no, when you are done the dog is fully equipped to handle real-world surprises. You have taught the dog a new "default" behavior when exposed to the trigger- to calmly look at mom. So when you come around the corner and six barking poodles on flexis mob you, your dog calmly looks at mom and you calmly get your dog away from the poodles. The only reason you poo-poo these programs is you gave up at stage I instead of working through the entire program. They aren't easy.They take time and patience and a lot of work. Right now a lady with a leash-reactive cocker is in, oh, stage III of the program, and every night she comes to our dog training club and exposes her dog to multiple strange dogs and works on her default behaviors- and she will succeed. Every night her dog is doing better.

I have to agree.  Most people quit way too early, and assume that the methods don't work.  My Sioux is a therapy dog today because I didn't quit, so I'm speaking from my own experiences with classical and counter-conditioning.   

Thank you mudpuppy.

I took Sheba to a behavioralist.  I worked hard with her, and it took a long time, but she's rock solid now.  I was beginning to feel that I was being poo-paahed for the training methods we used.

I'd put Sheba up against any "otherwise trained" dog in a heartbeat.  And for exactly the reasons you mentioned.  She has been taught a new default behavior.

mudpuppy

...you gave up at stage I instead of working through the entire program. They aren't easy.They take time and patience and a lot of work. Right now a lady with a leash-reactive cocker is in, oh, stage III of the program, and every night she comes to our dog training club and exposes her dog to multiple strange dogs and works on her default behaviors- and she will succeed. Every night her dog is doing better.

I have heard Ixas_girl and Glenmar convey their successes.  Houndlove is a work in process.  I am still looking for a timeframe and a commitment to effort.

Mudpuppy, these programs...are relating to your understanding and other's experiences but have none of your own.  I ask because I have given up with the some fosters because it appears no progress is made.  It may also be that the fosters do not get exposure to other dogs all that often.

glenmar

I'd put Sheba up against any "otherwise trained" dog in a heartbeat.  And for exactly the reasons you mentioned.  She has been taught a new default behavior.

But doesn't this "new default behavior" diminish over time and therefore have to be reinforced continuously over the life of the dog.  It seems to me the fear is still there but surpressed and can resurface at any time.  I find that the longer the CC takes the higher the maintenance afterwards.  Or, the apparent successes is just due to the dog given enough time to work it out on its own.

spiritdogs

My Sioux is a therapy dog today because I didn't quit, so I'm speaking from my own experiences with classical and counter-conditioning.   

With leash reactivity or C&CC in general?  What was your timeframe and effort in possibly extinguishing the leash reactivity behavior.  Exposure once a day, twice a day, once a week, once a month...and over what time period?  Very important to me so that I know there may be a light at the end of the tunnel. 

My current foster Paganini is labeled DA and she has made such progress in a short period of time because of me setting up social situations.  I will be venturing out with her to meet new dogs and I need to be successful in order for the dog to have a better chance of being adopted.  Serious stuff here so honest answers supported by experience is needed by me.

Variable level of reinforcement creates the strongest behavior over time. So yes that means every now and then Sheba will need to be rewarded in some way for her new default behavior. But not necessarily the highest level reward and knowing Sheba's breed I'd say that Glenda's praise and some petting are probably more than enough to keep this behavior strong as a default.  

Personally, I don't care what the behavior is, every now and then everything my dogs know gets rewarded and rewarded handsomely. Maybe not every time or every third time or every tenth time, but every now and then they get the good stuff. I would stop going to work if I stopped getting a paycheck so I don't know why my dogs should be held to a higher standard.  

DPU

I ask because I have given up with the some fosters because it appears no progress is made.  It may also be that the fosters do not get exposure to other dogs all that often.

 

To me, this would be the most important thing that would determine how long it would take - which is why it's virtually impossible for someone else to predict a time frame for any particular dog. That's what I meant when I said it depends on how much time and effort someone puts into it. That's not to imply that you aren't putting as much effort is as you should/could be, it's more to do with how often you're able to set up situations where you can work on it. That's not always easy to do, I know. You either need other people with calm friendly dogs to help you, or access to areas where you can be reasonably certain that there will be other dogs around, but where you'll still be able to somewhat control the situation and work with the dog at whatever distance you need to start at, and then gradually move closer over time.

If you can work on it daily or even short sessions several times a day you'll progress faster than if you can only work on it once or twice a week. Occasional exposure will take much longer, of course. We live in a very quiet neighborhood, so most of our work was intensive stuff in class each week. On walks we might only see a dog every couple of days so our options to work on it outside of class were more limited unless we went somewhere else.

DPU, no, actually we've not had any regression at all in the past two years since Sheba learned that she could trust me to take care of things and not need to take matters into her own paws.  Total trust doesn't typically happen overnite, with dogs or with humans.

Cassidys Mom

To me, this would be the most important thing that would determine how long it would take - which is why it's virtually impossible for someone else to predict a time frame for any particular dog.

This is why I was pursuing answers on the timeframe and effort of those that had successes.   If real successes were measured and discussed may be we can identify some reasons as to why the process can be very very long or very very short with the goal of closing the gap.  A lot of us attempt, fail, and end up managing the environment to the detriment of the dog's social needs.

glenmar

Sheba learned that she could trust me to take care of things and not need to take matters into her own paws.

So we end up using the relationship to control the behavior.   All that other stuff in between amounts to just giving the dog exposure to the trigger at different distances.   I am not convinced that I have to create distractions.  I am not convinced that the dog always has awareness of the trigger once distracted.  I think the dog's focus is either or.  The dog may eventually favor one over the other, but I don't see the reactivity extinguished.