Had my German Shepherd for 2 years....starting to act aggressive.

However, if you work on this as a progressive deal, you stop avoiding the situation.

When I first started working with Sheba we would do an abrupt about face the second I saw anyone or anything that was going to cause a reaction.  Eventually we started getting closer, making sure that SHE saw the "offender"  It was a work in progress.  Yes, slow but steady, just as the behavorialist had suggested.  We can walk right on past the rude fence aggressive dogs, or stop and talk to them without the first issue.

Ixas_girl

Cassidys Mom

Counter Conditioning & Desensitization (CC&D) is widely believed to be the best way to deal with leash reactivity and other forms of barrier frustration.

 

Yes, that's mostly what I did. 

I got stuck at a certain point with CC&D that kept my dog from ever meeting other dogs, since some of the popular CC&D methods only teach how to avoid confrontations, and don't describe how to successfully move through confrontations. I find it true, for us, that avoiding the hot situation altogether, means we can't work it's solutions, and it just remains an outstanding problem. I didn't know enough to handle the trigger situations on my own, which is why I hired a pro.

Oh, and here's a resource to find behaviorists: http://www.dogpro.org/ 

Cassidy's Mom, have you posted about your work with Cassidy's reactivity elsewhere on the board? I'd love to hear more about what you did.  

I'm a very new member here, so I don't think I've done more than mention Cassidy's leash aggression in passing on this board. I've been a member of a German shepherd board since 3/03, and a moderator over there for about two years. I've posted about it over there extensively, but most of those posts are long gone in board updates and purges. We got Cassidy at 20 weeks old at the end of October 2000, and worked with her for leash aggression a bunch, including special classes with Trish King at the Marin Humane Society. The Difficult Dog classes were great, and helped us so much.

We made a TON of progress with Cassidy, but then she developed a painful spinal disease, discospondylitis at 2-1/2 years old, which we fought for 20 months before putting her to sleep at just over 4 years old. So while we made a lot of progress with her leash aggression, training eventually was trumped by dealing with her illlness. I can post what I remember from her classes (6/01) in this thread, send you a PM, or start a new thread. I'm not used to the strict requirements of staying on topic with idog - my usual board isn't nearly so strict about that sort of thing - I'm happy to share my experience, but I don't know what the best thing to do on this board would be. 

I totally agree with you about working though confrontations. At first you need to work sub-threshold, but eventually you do need to get to the point where you can handle polite on leash greetings with other dogs. Professional help can be a big help toward that goal.

I think it's http://www.germanshepherds.com/forum/ubbthreads.php

I see her posting and moderating there!  

Ixas_girl

Cassidys Mom

I'm happy to share my experience, but I don't know what the best thing to do on this board would be. 

I totally agree with you about working though confrontations. At first you need to work sub-threshold, but eventually you do need to get to the point where you can handle polite on leash greetings with other dogs. Professional help can be a big help toward that goal.

 

Wow. What a struggle, there must have been much joy amidst the pain of it.  

If you're willing to start a new thread to share your work with Cassidy, I'd be grateful to read it!

Yes, I too also work through confrontations.  Unless the situation is very volatile, I keep the dog in the situation but at distances.  I too would appreciate you sharing your work with Cassidy.  At the foster dog showings where there is so much going on and potential adopters wanting their dogs to meet the fosters, leash reactivity is common.  What seems to be missing in other threads on the subject is the timeframe it takes for a dog to get over leash reactivity. 

What seems to be missing in other threads on the subject is the timeframe it takes for a dog to get over leash reactivity.

That's probably because it's different for each dog.  It takes as long as it takes.   

Liesje

I think it's http://www.germanshepherds.com/forum/ubbthreads.php

I see her posting and moderating there!  

Yep, that's my board! Life with Cassidy definitely had moments of joy and pain, particularly the 20 months we spent trying to control HER pain and give her a decent quality of life. What was particularly grueling was that she'd do very poorly for several months and just when we thought it was time to end her life she'd improve a bit. She'd do pretty well for several more months and we'd be hopeful that things would turn around, and then our hopes would be dashed again as her condition took a nosedive. We went through many of these periods of ups and downs.

We spent tens of thousands of dollars on her and tried EVERYTHING - homeopathy, Chinese herbs, and she got regular chiropractic adjustments and acupuncture from a holistic vet in addition to traditional care. All that after working so hard on her issues, it really exhausted us, especially emotionally. She ended up being a pretty great dog, fine with most dogs off leash, wonderful with people and especially gentle with small kids. Off the charts ball drive, and a natural tracker too. Letting her go was the hardest thing in the world for both of us, but we finally realized we could not fix her.

When I have more time I'll start a thread about her issues and post a few pics - I have some that I took exactly 3 months from the day she died with my hubby's cousin's toddler. You can also see how her body has shrunken into itself in those pics - she had turned 4 years old a month before, and looked three times that old.

I got stuck at a certain point with CC&D that kept my dog from ever meeting other dogs, since some of the popular CC&D methods only teach how to avoid confrontations, and don't describe how to successfully move through confrontations.

this is a complete misunderstanding of "gradual desensitization" programs. You don't avoid the "trigger" at all: you gradually desensitize the dog to the trigger by exposing the dog to the trigger at a safe distance, teach the dog a new, more acceptable behavior to perform at the sight of the trigger (such as being calm instead of crazed), and move closer and closer and closer to the trigger until hey presto, it's not a trigger anymore.

mudpuppy

I got stuck at a certain point with CC&D that kept my dog from ever meeting other dogs, since some of the popular CC&D methods only teach how to avoid confrontations, and don't describe how to successfully move through confrontations.

this is a complete misunderstanding of "gradual desensitization" programs. You don't avoid the "trigger" at all: you gradually desensitize the dog to the trigger by exposing the dog to the trigger at a safe distance, teach the dog a new, more acceptable behavior to perform at the sight of the trigger (such as being calm instead of crazed), and move closer and closer and closer to the trigger until hey presto, it's not a trigger anymore.

Yeah, it sounds like the desensitization part was missing and it was just counterconditioning going on. We actually took two DD classes, the first one at the Marin Humane Society, the second with Cassidy's usual trainer. Lisa had mentored with Trish King at MHS and was just starting to develop her own DD program. She had referred us to the class, and was there several weeks to assist and take notes. When we finished the first DD class, we took Lisa's class. I felt like she was trying to protect us too much from confrontations. She wanted us to sit out a couple of exercises she thought would be too much for Cassidy, I insisted that we try because if you work entirely sub threshold then you ARE avoiding confrontation. I felt like we needed to push her a little harder, and that I had a better handle of how much she could take.

If you're doing CC&D because you're afraid of flying, at some point you DO have to get on the plane, so a certain amount of stress is going to be part of the process. How long the process takes depends on the dog and also how much time and effort you're willing to take to work on it.

I've read Scaredy Dog and while Ali Brown does talk about avoiding triggers and just stress in general for a couple weeks, that's for a biological reason: stress hormones build up in the body and take some time to dissipate again. She wants the dogs to start from a place of no stress. But after that, the book is all about starting work sub-threshold and then slowly but surely moving closer to the trigger at a pace and a stress level that the dog can handle while still being able to focus and learn. Leslie McDevitt's book is chock full of photographs of how she manages reactive dogs in her classes and then slowly removes the management and gets them working close together and within view of one another over the course of an 8 week class. So I definitely think that a class where the main point is avoiding meeting other dogs is not at all a mainstream CC&D method.

Cassidys Mom

If you're doing CC&D because you're afraid of flying, at some point you DO have to get on the plane, so a certain amount of stress is going to be part of the process. How long the process takes depends on the dog and also how much time and effort you're willing to take to work on it.

I agree with the first statement and as I stated I always keep the dog in the situation but at distances.  The second statement is what I referred to before as the time element missing out of the discussion, no offense intended.  Leash reactivity is discussed all the time on this forum and there should be a suggestion of some time to measure for progress.  To determine if what you are doing is working or its not working.  To determine if more time is needed.  To determine if more or less effort should applied.  Trust in the dog is very important in the extinction part and that can't begin in part until the degree of unwanted behavior is measured. 

Well, as someone currently engaged in the process of working with a leash reactive dog....I can tell that what I'm doing is working but I couldn't tell you how long it's going to take until we're "done". I was able to see some progress within about three weeks of making the decision to buckle down and do something about the problem and developing a plan to do so. Then progress slowed as I began to realize that my plan was somewhat half-arsed and I needed to do more thinking and reading and develop some additional strategies. Now the pace has begun to pick up again as I'm applying some of the additional stuff I learned and also began using a sense-ible harness. I'm very happy with the way things are going right now, actually. And the progress being made is in direct proportion to how willing I am to be "on" during all walks that I take with Conrad. Walks are not relaxing right now for me because every walk is an opportunity to train and I have to take those opportunities and at the same time work to prevent Conrad from rehearsing his reactive behavior. But with every passing week my list gets longer of things that I'm proud of him for and situations where just a few months ago he would have acted very differently than he is acting now.

mudpuppy

I got stuck at a certain point with CC&D that kept my dog from ever meeting other dogs, since some of the popular CC&D methods only teach how to avoid confrontations, and don't describe how to successfully move through confrontations.

this is a complete misunderstanding of "gradual desensitization" programs. You don't avoid the "trigger" at all: you gradually desensitize the dog to the trigger by exposing the dog to the trigger at a safe distance, teach the dog a new, more acceptable behavior to perform at the sight of the trigger (such as being calm instead of crazed), and move closer and closer and closer to the trigger until hey presto, it's not a trigger anymore.

Your stated assumption is incorrect. And you risk ending up with a dog that is impeccable in the controlled, slow approach, but is unequipped to handle real-world surprises. 

Do both of you assume the dog is always aware of the presence of the trigger?

Ixas_girl

Your stated assumption is incorrect. And you risk ending up with a dog that is impeccable in the controlled, slow approach, but is unequipped to handle real-world surprises. 

It's not that you take that slow approach every time the dog is in the presence of a trigger. It's a cumulative process over time--not all in one session, then the next session you do it all over again from the start. You start out working with the dog from far away from the trigger, then the next time you go out, you may be able to get a little closer. Then the next time a little closer still. Until the dog begins to reframe the presence of the trigger to no longer mean 'Scary!' and begin to mean 'Fun! Good!'. Eventually you can walk right around a corner smack in to another dog and your formerly reactive dog will simply look to you to get his reward rather than freaking out about the trigger. Conrad has already begun to, when he hears a dog barking, instead of going on high alert, just look at me instead. I don't work him up to that every time we go on a walk, the learning has been cumulative. The end goal will be that every time we see a dog, no matter how close the other dog is, he will return his attention to me after observing the other dog, and remain calm because he will have relearned that the presence of another dog does not predict a stressed out scary experience, but a calm, happy, mutually enjoyable one.

Leslie McDevitt's program even includes a game called the "There's a dog in your face!" game to specifically teach reactive dogs (when they've been through enough of the program to be ready for it) how to behave when another dog gets very close in to their personal space.

DPU

Do both of you assume the dog is always aware of the presence of the trigger?