Submissive Urination: At the END of my rope

I have not dealt with this before, well at least not to this extent.  Kenya has piddled a few times, but only when she actually REALLY had to go and was more excited/had to go than being scared/submissive.  Anyway...you can take this with a grain of salt since I don't know if it will help, but some people recommended to me this pheromone diffuser thing that helps make dogs calmer and less nervous in the house (Kenya has/had some residual issues with being nervous around men in the house, even my own husband).  I don't really get how it works but I think it lets off some chemical that calms the dog.  Another thing I would do is crate train the dog and use a crate for a while so when I come home, if the dog pees it pees in the crate, not running around all over the house peeing.  You can also get doggie diapers or wraps that I think discourage peeing, but if the dog does pee it absorbs it rather than making a mess on the ground.  If the cause of the urination really is fear and anxiety, the dog might benefit from medication.  Some extreme cases need medication.  I notice you say you hired a trainer.  I would actually hire a behaviorist, not a trainer.  Behaviorists actually have degrees in studying animal behavior, learning theories, behavor mod, etc. while a trainer can be anyone who has experience with dogs/animals but doesn't necessarily understand the psychology behind the dog's behavior.

Hi there,

Thanks so for your quick response.  I've never heard of the pheromone diffuser before, but just did a quick web search on it -- It is asbsolutely worth a try. Anything is worth a try, and I am definately going to try it. Thanks.

It truly is an issue to do w/fear, anxiety, excitement, etc -- it doesn't have anything to do with housebreaking, she is completely housebroken, crate-trained in that regard -- and we've already tried on vet-prescribed medication for it in the past. He prescribed something called Proin (50mg; 1 tablet a day).  Unfortunately it did absolutely nothing: was of no help at all, and I noticed no change in her issues - so she is no longer on the medication.

I hadn't really given any thought to the diaper/pads: I don't know how much help they'd be, unfortunately, as I think she'd pee right through them.

However, a dog psychologist -- Wow, fantastic idea -- Thank you!  I would never have even thought about that. Maybe this could really help us get down to the bottom of the issue, and finding a potential solution to the issue.  I want to make an appoitment with dog pyschologist immediately. Any suggestions on how/where I could find one? ... I'm going to do some digging around now, in the interim, do you they'd be listed in the phonebook/on the web under listing of 'dog psychologist'? 

Again, thanks so much! 

i'm not sure if it would help with the peeing, but it wouldn't hurt to work on things that will increase her confidence. also, desensitizing her to tones of voice might help as well.

First of all bless you for hanging in there for this dog and seeking help!

I've had quite a bit of experience with this issue and my own dog was a submissive urinator when i got her at 18 months old from the shelter. This problem can be overcome, so don't give up hope!

Although there are very few dogs which are born "ultra-submissive" or "ultra dominant", these dogs do exist. My own dog was not "ultra-submissive", but she was very insecure and had obviously lived with someone who did not read or speak "dog" very well.

Provided there is no underlying medical condition, I think you should be able to work on this yourself and see how far you can get before you spend money on a professional.

Submissive urination is a dog's way of signalling "I give", "you're the boss", "please don't hurt me!", or "I'm just a baby". If they don't feel they have gotten this message across, they will only pee more because their signal was not "heard". The first step is to take all need to send this signal away by not approaching directly, avoiding eye contact, and not projecting your anticipation of her peeing through feeling anxious about it or acting frustrated if it happens. Your dog can sense you anxiety or frustration. It sounds like you already understand about vocal tones.

Eye contact, body positioning, posture (indicating mental state and intent), and vocal tone are big deals in the dog world.

All guests and family members must completely ignore this dog upon greeting her "no touch, no talk, no eye contact". And believe me, dealing with the other humans will be harder than working with your dog on this issue. You have to be very firm about it while maintaining an upbeat tone.

Keep a long leash on her when you are with her and if you need to move her from one spot to another, simply take the end of the leash while facing away from her and gently go in the opposite direction. Ignore her when you do this.    

Instead of calling her to you or telling her to go "out", I would teach her the word "cookie" means she's going to get an extra special treat every time you say this word. Start by saying "cookie", and then dropping a treat on the floor while still not putting direct pressure on her with eye contact or a direct approach. You don't even have to say "good girl". Just teach her that the word "cookie" means she is going to get a treat. She should start following you to the spot you place the treat whether it's outside, off of the bed, or what ever.

Hang in there and see if this doesn't help. Calm consistancy with no pressure on the dog using the above suggestions should help. Just remember, the hardest part will be dealing with other humans and dealing with her yourself without making eye contact, but she needs to lose the need to send you this signal to start the proccess of rehabilitation, IMO.

Keep in touch and good luck!

 

Hi! 

I just clicked onto your link (corgipower) are you Liz?  If you are I noticed you're in NJ -- I'm in NJ too, and was wondering if you might have any suggestions on dog behavorists in the area/state that you would recommend that I contact. Or if you have any other ideas re: anyone else with specific related training that I might want to get in contact with re: consultation with my dog?

I'm no familiar with how/what to do with the desensitizing techniques, and/or things to do to go about increasing her confidence. 

I just did a websearch on dog behavorists, but didn't come up with very much: someone in Seargentsville, NJ (left her voice mail), someone in Flemington, NJ, and then it appears to be a group in Philly connected with UPENN -- though, I consider that to be a bit too far for me to travel to.

Any suggestions?  THANKS SO MUCH! 

Angelique,

Thank you so much for your advice. You can't imagine how reassuring it was to hear that someone else has been through this experience and has come out the other end with a 'happy ending'/resolution/solution. 

I will implement everything you have mentioned in your post and will start over with this, giving it a new/fresh attempt.

This morning just felt like the last notch of my rope when she peed on the new white comforter. It was like - oh, come on, that's it, that's it, that's it - I've had it, I give in, dog, I'm done, done, done with this. 

Unfortunately, everyone else here has truly given up with this dog months ago: it's truly hard to appreciate, even see, any of her good, redeeming qualities because 'her' as a being is overshadowed with the absolutely frustrating peeing issues. I feel like I am her sole 'friend', the only one still trying to convince everyone -- and essentially I realized today, even trying to convince myself, to like the dog and not give up on her. 

But I truly came to the end of my rope this morning: when she did this on on the comforter, I was just furious. The consistent, calm, soothing vocal tone I use with her went right out the window.  I screamed furiously -- took her by the head and put her eyes directly on the pee spot, screaming 'no, no', 'bad, bad' (which I realize is the worst thing to do with submissive urinators, screaming, yelling, etc) -- but I bloodly lost it.  And the result (of course, in retrospect, expected result) was more peeing and more peeing: I screamed, she peed, I saw the she let more pee out, and I screamed again, she peed again. This cycle must have gone on 4-5 times in a row, and I ended up with small pee spots all on my bed and bedroom carpet.  I aknowledge that every single time she lost control (after the initial pee) was really my fault for yelling: but I had really lost it.

I truly feel like I also lost my mind at the moment.  Once I got her back downstairs behind the gate, and worked on trying to pick up all the spots of pee in my room I was screaming even more: screaming out loud to myself like an absolute crazy person. Thank God no one else was home at the time, they probably would have thought I was having an absolute mental breakdown if they had heard me screaming: that's it dog, you've lost your last remaining friend here, I hate you dog, I hate you, I just don't like you, you've made it impossible to like you.  (And sadly, I realized once I got those words out -- I felt a true sense of relief -- like yes, I do hate the damned dog: I've been supressing it so long, trying so hard to like her, as she needed someone still on her side, her sole defender here, but once I got the words out I screamed them even more: I hate you dog, you are ruining this damned house, ruining my life).  It was cathartic. But, wow .... I realized just what an impact this dog is having on my life and well-being (and, unfortunately, the impact is not remotely positive in any capacity).  

Whew!  Well, thanks for the listening. I feel like this dog has driven me to seek therapy - and you folks on this board have been my therapist/s!  I swear, it's probably hard to believe after hearing the rants here, but I am actually, usually a mentally balanced (at least, sounding person)!

I am going to start with a fresh approach here with Sadie and her pee issues. I'll try exactly as you have listed in your post. Hopefully we'll start to see some positive changes/results, as you have/had.  Again, thank you so much for your advice.

 

 

Thank you for sharing what happened in your moment of frustration. Many would not be brave enough to share that on a dog board (and don't let any possible negative comments which may crop-up in this thread, keep you from regrouping and moving forward). I'm glad you now understand that the more angry you became, the more your dog felt the need to pacify you with more of a signal. That's exactly what was happening, IMO.

So, deep breaths, a commitment to understanding this little being, and forward you go!

I believe dogs come into our lives to teach us something we need to understand. They truly are angels in fur!

Please check back in with us and let us know how things are going, okay?

I just wanted to chime and a little support and say that I commend you for sticking with it for this little girl of yours. I agree with everything Angelique said so I won't repeat it. But it seems to me that you came to the right place! Welcome and please let us know how it's going.  

I would completely stop telling her to not-do things. It's totally unnecessary- tell her what to do instead. You need to turn your approach around and be entirely positive with her-- instead of telling her to get-off-the-bed-now, reward her for not-being-on-the-bed: she must be not-on-the-bed much more often than on it, right?  or turn it into a fun game-- ask her to jump off the bed! then get praised and rewarded!   use your baby gates to pre-empt her from doing things like getting into the litter box.

You might want to consider a fun clicker-tricks class to build confidence. And consider begging your vet for a temporary course of anti-anxiety meds.

DDee

Hi! 

I just clicked onto your link (corgipower) are you Liz?  If you are I noticed you're in NJ -- I'm in NJ too, and was wondering if you might have any suggestions on dog behavorists in the area/state that you would recommend that I contact. Or if you have any other ideas re: anyone else with specific related training that I might want to get in contact with re: consultation with my dog?

yes, i am liz...i sent you a PM.

 Hi DDee and welcome to the forum. Others will be able to give you concrete advice so I will simply offer you my support and prayers that you and Sadie will come through this. I can certainly relate to your frustration and sense of being left to deal with this on your own. But now you have a support group so feel free to vent! I totally agree with keeping everything 100% positive and working on building Sadie's confidence. Teaching her new behaviours and/or little tricks is a great ego boost for dogs. The more opportunities you have to reward her with a yummy treat and lots of praise the more confident she will become.

Best of Luck 

hi, welcome to the forum! stick around here, you'll get lots of good advice and if not, at the very least some moral support! it really helps. i always come here if i had a bad day with the dogs. i can really understand your frustration! i've had a submissive pee-er. not as bad as yours as it seems, but i can completely relate. unfurtunately, you're right, your outburst this morning probably did more harm than good. i think you're on the right track about a fresh start here. i'd try the doggy diapers, because it will just help you with your frustration in general. if doggy diapers are too expensive you could try baby diapers (put them on front to back and cut in a whole for the tail) or even kid's underwear and then using a woman's pad (this is what i did with moca in heat, before she got spayed and it worked pretty well). i'd also google submissive urination and read up on it, if you havent done so already. many people might have much experience with dogs in general, but not with this kind of issue specifically, and i'm afraid SOME things have to be taken on differently with this kind if dog. also, you should remember, that dealing with this issue means not only avoiding a situation, where she might pee, but instead change interactions with this dog in general in order to change her perception of her surroudings. hmm, that sounded weird. i hope you understand what i mean. for example today my bf greeted moca outside hysterically and as a result moca did some submissive urination. then he tells me proudly he did it, cause he knew he didnt have to worry. MEEEP, wrong!!! he got her riled up made the issue in general worse... i hope that makes sense.... also, i dont know if you are familiar with this. probably are, but will sya this just in case: always ignore the dog if she is peein submissively. no correction, physical or verbal and no "soothing" her either. both will make matters worse. if you have any more questions, just let me know. at the very least, i'll give you some moral support... :)

Hi D. Welcome to the forum.  Just a couple of suggestions.  There's a small, inexpensive booklet by Patricia McConnell that lists some activities and training you can do with your dog to increase her general confidence level.  It's called "The Cautious Canine".  I have found the techniques to be useful, and hope you'll try them.  In addition, an activity like dog agility can make a difference, too, in boosting the dog's confidence, and it's fun!     

I would suggest that when you need to move the dog, that you not hover over her in any way.  See if you can, instead, use a cheery voice to get her attention, then simply call her off the bed/couch.  You know that you are not a threat, but she needs to know it, too.  Dogs interpret the placement of another dog's body parts over theirs as a threat, and a dog like yours will attempt to appease you, thus she urinates.  Submissive urination is the sign of a dog that is trying to tell you that she is not a threat, and hopes you aren't either.  Cocker Spaniels, as a breed, are particularly prone to this behavior, so it's not uncommon for a Cocker mix to do it. 

Catch her being brave and quietly reward her when she does not pee submissively.  Sometimes, we get so caught up in trying to fix what's wrong, we forget to reinforce what the dog does right:-)  HTH
 

I have a small Maltese, that if I holler at her for something she will pee sometimes right there and then.  I think I'm usually yelling at her because she peed on my floor, since she isn't truly housebroken.  Only when she wants to be.  Misty has had the submissive accidents here and there, luckily it's been outside, or in her crate.  This is usually overexcitement.  Haven't seen it lately, but it happened only about a month ago.  Has your dog been to the vet for any urinary tract infections, etc.?  If you haven't, I think I would look into it.  It could be a medical issue, not a mental one.  Hate to even mention this since dogs cost so much as it is to raise, but they do sell doggie diapers.  I would definitely keep her off your bed and out of all the rooms you don't want her in.  I understand your frustration, and don't worry, urine usually comes out.  Good Luck!