How Can I Teach Jaia to Drop the Ball? *Update W/ Video*

Out of my 2, Flem is good at fetching, bringing back and spitting in in your hand. Spip, Labradork that she is, tends to do one of two things : let it fly without any interest (Flem then brings two balls at once, she looks like she has a major toothache) or, like Jaia, go pick up, lays down and chomps on it as if her mission is to destroy it. If I go to wherever she is, she does not play the escape game and spits it out so she is not as intense as Jaia about the keeping.

One thing I have noticed is that Spip does this more if the ball is sent farther away. If I just kinda roll it or throw it softly enough that she is closer (I'd say within 20 feet), she tends to bring it back somewhat more regularly. She needs to be under my "sphere of influence" it seems to consider that I do want that ball back. This made me think, could the fact that the ball is sent really far away by the chuck-it influence Jaia's behavior ? Have you tried to throw it close to you to see if he would bring it back better ? If that worked, you could increase the throwing distance little by little. Just a thought.

DPU

How about a tennis-ball-like ball that is larger, much larger and heavier.

That's a great idea. Thanks. In fact, I think I'll use several types of balls we have around here, including the red kong ball, and even other objects to get the behavior. Once he is reliable across all objects, including the tennis ball, I'll attach the command. (Does that sound right, sd? Do you think that's the right order of progression?) Then I'll move to tossing the object a short distance.

Ugh, what a pain in the butt this dog is! LOL  

Thalie

Have you tried to throw it close to you to see if he would bring it back better ? If that worked, you could increase the throwing distance little by little.

Yes. He does bring it back over short distances. He's still very reluctant to give it up, though. And that's what I'm going to do. Start little and build, making sure he is continuous throughout.

Ugh, what a pain in the butt this dog is! LOL 

haha I know that feeling. You'll whoop for joy the first time he drops it for you though! :) 

Just a thought - I hope you work on this without the other dogs present.  It's more important for the obsessed dog to hold on to his ball if there are other dogs who might, just might, be able to grab it.  Also, when you say he won't drop it for a treat, what if the treat was liverwurst, and you held it right up near his nose (I mean touching his nose).  Most dogs will at least drop the ball for a second to take real meat, but if he won't let you near him, I suspect (you tell me) it may be because at some point, a human physically took the ball out of his mouth. 

The idea is to trade the ball back and forth for the meat, so he learns that he always gets it back anyway, so he might as well drop it and take the other prize, too.  Some dogs will drop the ball when a handful of turkey bits suddenly fly onto the floor.  Some dogs will give it up for cheese - I have one dog in basic class right now who couldn't care less for roast beef, but when I grab the mozzarella, I'm his best friend on the planet.  You just never know till you try.   

I have this problem with Kord on occasion, but I can tell you it took TONS of repetitive training, we both taught him real fast that the only way to get it was to give it.

Kord will literally spit the ball or frisbee out at our feet, if it does not land within reaching distance we ask him to pick it up and bring it closer. I refuse to move after it. And he ignores food when there is a ball or frisbee in sight.

Here is a video we took early this year, he has 3 frisbee's that my husband is throwing for him, notice very early that 2 are out of our reach, he will actually pick both of them up and toss them at my husbands feet to throw.

http://s92.photobucket.com/albums/l21/Truleyy/?action=view¤t=Catch.flv

Good luck!

spiritdogs

I hope you work on this without the other dogs present. 

Yes. I gated them out of the room.  

spiritdogs

Also, when you say he won't drop it for a treat, what if the treat was liverwurst

He'll drop it in the house for just about anything. Today, I used catfood kibbles and some NB food roll. He drops even the tennis ball for any of those in the house. Outside during the "big game", he wouldn't even take chicken liver. I didn't have liverwurst, but when I move the game outside, I'll get some.  

spiritdogs

I suspect (you tell me) it may be because at some point, a human physically took the ball out of his mouth. 

Yes, when this game first started with him keeping the ball, we took it out of his mouth. I know now that that's wrong, but I didn't then.

Our first session today went very well. We're just trading the ball for food in the house. I even threw it a few times and he fetched it and brought it back and dropped it. There were a couple times when it rolled away and he went and got it and brought it back for trade. So he gets the idea.  

It's going to have to be the kind of thing where I work it out as I go along. But I think it will work.

Great vid of Kord. What a good boy!  

Our first session today went very well. We're just trading the ball for food in the house. I even threw it a few times and he fetched it and brought it back and dropped it. There were a couple times when it rolled away and he went and got it and brought it back for trade. So he gets the idea.

When he's doing it in the kitchen, the dining room, the basement, and the laundry room, LOL...then attach a verbal cue.  Whatever word you used when you used to take things out of his mouth, ditch that word and use something different.  After you have done the "drop" all over the house, do the same thing in the yard, the garage, a neighbor's yard, etc.  

I offer my experience as just that, not a guide as to how you should do it. Maybe, you might see similarities or none at all.

In times past, Shadow's version of fetch goes like this.

You throw the ball or toy and Shadow gets it. Then he takes off at 30 mph and you are expected to give chase, catch up and then play tug with it.

With clicker training, he would get it, bring it back and drop it to get the treat. It has been the only way I could teach retrieve, the command for fetch. He has no idea whether he will get one treat, a handful of the treats, or a morsel or even a chunk of roasted turkey. But the anticipation of that makes holding onto or not returning the toy as a self-reward pale in comparison. Why hold onto a slobbery hunk of rubber when he can trade it for savory steak?

It becomes stronger when you fade the marker and use variable rewards. Now, when Shadow is ready for his regular meal, I can throw the kong and he brings it back and drops it and leaves it so that I can grab it again and throw it again and he can get it again. This might happen 2 or 3 times before eating and it's him wanting to do it. I could just be lazy and not do any of that but set the food down. This from a dog that usually "preferred" to run off with it and, trust me, even on you best day you would not catch up with him.

The other advice I have heard of is to get him to release and then give it back to him. Once he realizes that he can get it back, he won't guard it so much.

The other advice I have heard of is to get him to release and then give it back to him. Once he realizes that he can get it back, he won't guard it so much.

Ditto.  The ball becomes more valuable to him the more he thinks you want it.  By grabbing it out of his mouth before, you told him that you wanted it badly.  Even a dominant dog doesn't usually go up to another dog and take his toy right out of his mouth.   So, not only do you need to work through training the drop, but changing his perception about you wanting the ball for anything but to give it back, even after you have traded him a goodie or two for it.  If food doesn't work you can always use a squeaker toy or a skunk pelt, or another tennis ball (rub some beef juice or a tiny dab of butter on it.  People get caught up in the "my dog should give me anything he has on command", but they forget about teaching the dog the command - they aren't born knowing what "drop" means, and some dogs just learn that it means "the human is after my stuff again", and because there has never been anything in it for them, except loss of the ball, and perhaps no more play, the only meaning that word has is "game over".  What you really want the dog to learn is that "drop" means give the ball to mom because she might give me a treat, but she also might just throw it again for me to chase.

We recently had a nice discussion on antedecents and isolating the cues for the specific behavior that is requested.  Jaia has already learned through repeition that commands in the house is only associated there and not outside.  Combine this with the obsessive behavior for the ball and I think Carla's approach of desensitizing is the right path.  Trading of equal value or up would seem to me that the dog would apply the same obsessive behavior to the new prized item, thus creating a worse situation.

We used to use 2 balls (and 3) and it worked well like this. On his way back to me with the first ball, I would prepare the second in the Chuck-it and hold it up to toss, so when he got close to me, he would drop the first in anticipation of me throwing the second. So he ALWAYS got another ball. He loves the chase more than anything. But once his mouth got large enough to hold 2 comfortably, that game was over.

I honestly believe the "keeping of the ball" (and frantic chewing of it) is not so much because of the value of the ball, but because of the conflict he feels in letting it go and holding onto it described on that other K9 board. It's a bit of an obsessive thing. I could be wrong on that, but I think I'll discover that as I go along.

spiritdogs

Even a dominant dog doesn't usually go up to another dog and take his toy right out of his mouth.

Someone needs to send B'asia that memo, then.  

spiritdogs

What you really want the dog to learn is that "drop" means give the ball to mom because she might give me a treat, but she also might just throw it again for me to chase.

Yeah. I really do want that.  

FourIsCompany

spiritdogs

Even a dominant dog doesn't usually go up to another dog and take his toy right out of his mouth.

 

Someone needs to send B'asia that memo, then.   

NEITHER of my dogs got that memo!  

DPU

The way that I play fetch with the group is to throw ball and all the dogs going running after it.  Once one dog has the ball in the mouth then the others try and take the ball out of the dog's mouth.  A chase happens and the ball eventually passes from one mouth to another.  Half my dogs like the chase and switch game and the other half likes bringing the ball back to me for another throw.  Either way when it is time to go into the house, the ball stays outside and it is usually dropped right at the back door.

FourIsCompany

spiritdogs

Even a dominant dog doesn't usually go up to another dog and take his toy right out of his mouth.

 

Someone needs to send B'asia that memo, then.  

Problem is my dogs can't read!  So even if they got the memo or that knowledge was written down in a book, they still would not get it.  Goofy dogs. My bad...food treat withheld. 

Cassidys Mom

FourIsCompany

spiritdogs

Even a dominant dog doesn't usually go up to another dog and take his toy right out of his mouth.

 

Someone needs to send B'asia that memo, then.   

 

 

NEITHER of my dogs got that memo!  

Right, I was just about to say....where did that come from?

Rumour does whatever he pleases.......usually, he doesn't have to take any toy out of any dog's mouth, he just herds them and grabs the back of their neck or back....and boom......toy dropped......winner/Rumour....loser/ rest of dogs.....simple......oh, there was a memo?????....LOL

DPU

Jaia has already learned through repeition that commands in the house is only associated there and not outside.

I think you are right, there.

I also think that training the task in different scenarios will dilute the effect of the original antecedent, i.e., inside the house. I agree that antecedent is important and is quite likely the cause if this challenge. And I respectfully disagree that treat training for trade, drop it, or leave it is akin to feeding an obsession.