How Can I Teach Jaia to Drop the Ball? *Update W/ Video*

ron2

And I respectfully disagree that treat training for trade, drop it, or leave it is akin to feeding an obsession.

You may respectfully disagree, but the advice I got for treating obsessions and what I am currently doing with Paganini is desensitizing and counterconditioning her obsession.  So you would treat train a dog to stop obsessive licking and scratching when you have the knowledge that the cause is triggered by stress, but you do not know the cause of the stress? 

DPU

So you would treat train a dog to stop obsessive licking and scratching when you have the knowledge that the cause is triggered by stress, but you do not know the cause of the stress

I'm having a blonde moment. I can't figure out how this is relating to teaching drop it in a game of fetch.

ron2

I'm having a blonde moment. I can't figure out how this is relating to teaching drop it in a game of fetch.

Jaia seems to have an obsession with not giving up the ball to the exclusion of other prized items.  As Carla pointed out when she attempted trading for an equal or greater prize, Jaia held onto both.  How could you possibly treat train under these circumstances?   I can see desensitizing Jaia with the ball exchange.  I can see playing the game with a much lesser value item.  I can see taking the item away and never make it available for play because Jaia can't handle it.

DPU

Jaia seems to have an obsession with not giving up the ball to the exclusion of other prized items

Thank you for clarifying. I don't see Jaia as having an obsession. He just hasn't had a good reason in the past for playing fetch and drop it. NOw he does. I don't think it was a mental defect or condition but simply a dog that thought the game was hold on to it until someone showed him that another game could be rewarding.

ron2

DPU

Jaia has already learned through repeition that commands in the house is only associated there and not outside.

 

I think you are right, there.

I also think that training the task in different scenarios will dilute the effect of the original antecedent, i.e., inside the house. I agree that antecedent is important and is quite likely the cause if this challenge. And I respectfully disagree that treat training for trade, drop it, or leave it is akin to feeding an obsession.

I also think that Carla must train this progressively.  First the kitchen, then the den, then the yard, then the beach, etc.   At each new location, you are essentially raising the criteria for the dog, so you expect the dog to have to go back to square one maybe in a new location - but it should get better as the dog learns to generalize, and become fluent in, the behavior that's expected.  I also disagree that rewarding the "drop" is feeding an obsession.  Chasing the dog or grabbing the ball out of its mouth might tend to feed the obsession.  But, trading back and forth is reinforcing the dog for being willing to abandon the obsession for a moment (and you can gradually lengthen those moments).

Cassidys Mom

FourIsCompany

spiritdogs

Even a dominant dog doesn't usually go up to another dog and take his toy right out of his mouth.

 

Someone needs to send B'asia that memo, then.   

 

 

NEITHER of my dogs got that memo!  

Sometimes, that's less about the dominant dog taking something than the more submissive one giving it up.  And, some dogs just don't mind sharing with a pack mate.   I was just citing what's most commonly the case, not what anyone's individual dogs do.  God knows there are some things my own dogs do that don't adhere to the conventional wisdom either.

FourIsCompany

He will chew the ball until it comes apart and then eventually discard the rubber mass. I read that this isn't good for the dog's teeth, so I have stopped playing with the ball at all, so now it's a REALLY highly valued item.

Not sure if I have already suggested this, or maybe it was another thread.... but I think a good step would be to DEVALUE the item.  Get as many tennis balls as you can lay your hands on and fill a bag with them.  Then stand in a room with Jaia [sp? sry!) and just empty the bag.  The more balls you have the better!  Keep taking them out of the bag and dropping them unconcernedly on the floor....  I know this worked on a BC with a ball obession, might be worth a try....?

Interesting thought, Chuffy. I wonder... My suspicion is that he would take one, go to his bed and proceed to chew it completely up, then grab another. Poor teeth! Thanks for offering this suggestion. I may try it of he doesn't respond the the current line of training.

Chuffy

FourIsCompany

He will chew the ball until it comes apart and then eventually discard the rubber mass. I read that this isn't good for the dog's teeth, so I have stopped playing with the ball at all, so now it's a REALLY highly valued item.

Not sure if I have already suggested this, or maybe it was another thread.... but I think a good step would be to DEVALUE the item.  Get as many tennis balls as you can lay your hands on and fill a bag with them.  Then stand in a room with Jaia [sp? sry!) and just empty the bag.  The more balls you have the better!  Keep taking them out of the bag and dropping them unconcernedly on the floor....  I know this worked on a BC with a ball obession, might be worth a try....?

Are you sure you weren't at my training center on Sunday during play group????  OMG, there were tennis balls everywhere, and most of the dogs' eyes were glazing over... even the speckled monstah LOL.

FourIsCompany

Here's how "fetch with the group goes". I throw whatever (ball, stick, rope) Jaia runs after it. B'asia herds Jaia. Cara and Mia eat rabbit poop. Jaia comes halfway back, ball in his mouth and stares at me in anticipation, waiting for me to throw it again.

LOL that made me laugh!  Poor Bugsy tries to do that all on his own.  Fetch can be like this; he brings me a toy  I throw it, he takes off after it, he sees a bird and stops to point/stalk, he resumes fetch, retrieves object, starts running back, clearly proud of himself and flings toy in the air and drops it, notices rabbit poop eats a bit, picks up toy again and resumes heading towards me.  Oh and I mean AT me, his favorite return is to in between your legs.  Then he will keep the toy and wants you to pull it out of his mouth.  Tug is a favorite.

Now he isn't always so dozy.  If its his frisbee well there's just running and catching involved.  But a ball/stick/object he isn't very intense or focused about.  When we had my friends with lab here the lab was obsessed with whatever you threw.  Bugsy was focused on the lab, the people, the birds and then when the lab took off he was like hey wait for me where are you going.  The lab would get the ball and Bugs wanted to steal it from him and tug ensued with the lab desperately trying to return the ball to 'thrower' so he could fetch it again

Cassidys Mom

FourIsCompany

spiritdogs

Even a dominant dog doesn't usually go up to another dog and take his toy right out of his mouth.

 

Someone needs to send B'asia that memo, then.   

 

 

NEITHER of my dogs got that memo!  

Bugs has some dog friends that that IS the game - he and is GR friend go to the lake, she loves to swim, him not so much.  We throw the object she swims and gets it, he waits in chin high water and takes it from her.  Then they chase each other and it starts again.  He also did this with a lab that visited on land and water.

Disclaimer - this is my idea.  It isn't based (explicitly) on a particular theory.  I used it with Ivan, and it worked for him.

Throw one ball. When he returns,  ssk him to drop the ball in his mouth. He won't.   Hold up another ball.  (Or even two balls) Be upbeat and offer to throw it.  He will probably do a doggy dance or wiggle, indicating interest. Ask him to drop the ball in his mouth.  He won't.  Continue being excited about the idea of throwing the new ball(s). Alternate offers to throw with requests to drop the current ball. (Assuming he understands the request). Use your best marketing skills - this new ball is amazing!If he drops the ball, throw the new one. Don't pick up old ball until he is on his way. This is fighting fire with fire.  The only thing more important than hoarding a ball? Getting a new ball to hoard, of course!

He very well might not respond the first session.  Give it a decent try, then go back inside. Try again next day.  Everyday, he gets to chase one ball UNLESS he releases. Then he gets to chase another (or two balls thrown at once). The key is that a ball is *never* thrown when a ball is in his mouth. Period.

You can keep working in the house at the same time, where he is good at dropping it. Have the same rule, that a ball doesn't get thrown when he has something in his mouth.

Ivan loved to chase balls, and in time he got the idea that full mouth never means chasing a new ball. Empty mouth means chasing new ball.  You might have to keep trying until J takes a chance and offers a drop.  Chances are he will at some point.  Then he gets rewarded big time. GOOOOD BOY!!! Throw new ball as far as you can. Continue having patience of a saint.
 

Jaia is doing really well with dropping the slobbery, muddy ball into my hand. We're not working with the tennis ball outside yet, but he's getting really dependable at gently putting the Kong ball right into my hand...

Video 

I haven't read all 3 pages of replies, but what about a "leave it" after he's dropped the ball?Leave it until you've picked it up? 

Works for my dog.

Another update! At the dog park today, Jaia found a tennis ball and I threw it for him about 12 times and he retrieved it and put that sucker in my hand every time! Yay!