How Can I Teach Jaia to Drop the Ball? *Update W/ Video*

I have a VERY ball oriented dog, and had this problem for a while.  I borrowed another dog who actually understood the basic concept of fetch (LOL) and played with her, ignoring Ben and making a HUGE deal of how much fun I was having playing with this other dog.  He figured out that if he wanted to play - and he did, because he can't stand any dog having more fun than him, he had to drop it...and none of that drop-5-feet-away stuff, he drops it by my toe. 

He is a retriever though - it was a foregone conclusion that he would, at some point. "get" it LOL   

I had to play to Ben's strengths and weaknesses.  I know he's, not jealous exactly, but has to be part of the action, I know he's pushy so I used that to get him to bring the ball closer and closer to me, I know he watches my interactions with other dogs very closely, and I know he's genetically predisposed to wanting to retrieve an object and give it to me. 

 Thanks... So can I borrow Ben?

Dena is VERY into tennis balls. She loves to fetch, but she also enjoys trotting along with a ball in her mouth. She knows that in order to play fetch she has to sit first, so when we get to the park, she'll ask to play ball by trotting to the side of the trail and sitting down and staring at us. We release her, and then throw the ball, she brings it back, but does not want to give it up unless there's another ball in the offing. Having that ball is very rewarding for her. So we play two ball. But she has to drop the first ball and sit before the second ball gets thrown. If she chooses not to play by our rules she doesn't get to play. Period. Ever. She'd get to chase the ball once, and that would be it, no more fun for you. She knows this, that we won't budge on the rules, so most of the time she'll drop that ball and sit, but once in awhile she won't drop it, so we turn around and keep walking and try again later.

I think if Jaia really wants to play ball, you're going to have to stick to your guns for awhile until he figures it out. Or maybe he just likes carrying his ball, and isn't that into retrieving. And if that's the case, then don't worry about it.
 

Sometimes, just our desire to get the dog to drop the ball makes him think it's waaay valuable.  After all, if you want it, it must be, since you are the all powerful human.  What kind of "treat" are we talking about?  Tripe?  Liverwurst?   Or, just a milk bone?   

One thing you can also try is to teach your dog to "give" another not-quite-so-valuable object into your hand.  Use a dumbbell perhaps, or something that the dog does not want in his mouth, and click/treat as the dog spits it back into your hand (stick that liverwurst right on his little nose the first couple of times).   Associate the cue "give" after the dog is repeatedly spitting the object into your hand.  Then, the dog will understand that "give" means "spit it into my hand".  It might take a few reps for him to realize that you also want him to "give" even if the item is his tennis ball (you can, to try to strengthen "give" first, use several other objects, so that the dog generalizes that all objects are to be put into your hand when he is asked to "give";). 

If he knows "drop it" and it is always in the context of dropping something he shouldn't have, make sure you use a cheery voice when you teach "give" and make it very worthwhile for him to do it.  Not one treat, ten treats (itty bitty ones, of course - no one wants a fat dog). 

 Keep an eye on this thread http://k9disc.com/speak/index.php?topic=2201.0;topicseen

They are talking about dogs who won't drop a frisbee. It's the same type of problem - drive and conflict about dropping the high valued toy. Does Jais chew the ball when you ask her to drop it? According to these trainers, that is conflict. She wants to drop it but her drive for the ball is over riding.

There are some ideas in there to think about and a link to the radio show where they talked about it. Someone just posted more questions so follow up answers are sure to come.

 Thank you for these ideas! SD, I want him to drop it, not put it in my hand. I use a Chuck-it, and I don't really want to touch his slobbery, dirty ball, so I really want him to drop it at my feet or close. And I have taught "drop-it" in a very "positive" setting. Not just when it's something I don't want him to have. Sometimes, in the house, I ask him to drop it just for the heck of it, praise him and give it right back.

I have used all kinds of treats. Chicken, liver treats among them.

Jewlieee

Does Jais chew the ball when you ask her to drop it? According to these trainers, that is conflict. She wants to drop it but her drive for the ball is over riding.

Thank you for that link! Great stuff! And yes, he chews it! And he seems to be in conflict. I hadn't thought about the drive and wanting to drop it, though. I will keep my eye on that thread.  

Thanks again!

So, if he drops in the house, what it is that he isn't getting about drop outside?  Maybe the fact that the ball flies faster, and longer - and is therefore more stimulating.  Maybe you could get over the aversion to dog spit for just a while and do the "same game" as in the house, but move it slowly to the back porch, the yard, the field.  That way, you aren't moving directly from fairly non-drivey play to the driviest play.  Once he generalizes the drop it's less of a problem (take it from the mom of a "chatterer" who now drops her frisbee).  I have a feeling that when you pick up the chuck-it, he thinks of this as a different game than the one you play inside.  Dogs learn in pictures, people don't always see things in this way.  Even the lack of a ceiling can make the dog think things are different...

Hmmm... Very interesting. I think this might be the crux of the issue. In the house, it's a toss a few feet and it's slow (I don't use the chuck-it in the house - LOL - I might put out a window!) And yes, I can work with dog spit.   And you know, he does drop it in the yard sometimes. But in the field, there's so much room that I can throw it really hard and fast and far and it's probably a different game to him and his excitement level is up...

Do you think it would be a good idea to start indoors with the chuck-it (carefully) and move out in steps over a few weeks? I think that sounds like a plan. 

Man! To think that we might actually be able to play this is very exciting to me because I know he loves it so much but we never play because we really can't.

Thank you!
 

I would use the chuck it in the house if it were me then slowly move outside throwing only short distances at first. 

We have a rule with the ball return.  It is to be put in front of me.  Not five FEET in front of me, but at MY feet.  If the ball doesn't come to me, or if someone thinks they can real quick steal it once it does and run off again to start a fun chase game, that's fine.  But they play without me.  I say "too bad", turn and walk towards the house and goodness I get that ball deposited in my hand before I get more than 2 steps.

Do you think it would be a good idea to start indoors with the chuck-it (carefully) and move out in steps over a few weeks? I think that sounds like a plan.

You could, but I think it's really important that you establish "drop" with a new cue word, one that will mean "drop" from the get go, and do it wherever you are.  The danger of starting with the chuck-it in the house (aside from having to put in new windows LOL) is that you might poison your cue - in other words, if he does the same thing indoors that he does in the field, then you may have to rethink that plan.  I would not let too many reps of the bad behavior happen, so as not to reinforce that.  I think that the problem is one of excitement, plus lack of generalization of a solid "drop" cue that means "drop" everywhere, no matter where the dog is.  You could use a clicker for this, so that you can mark the exact moment he "drops" each time, then attach the new cue word once the behavior is perfect.  (Don't name a weak behavior.)

I know you can do this - if I can get Sequoyah to drop that darn f-r-i-s-b-e-e then there's hope for Jaia.  

FourIsCompany

- Treats. No treat is more valuable to him than the ball. He won't give it up.

Are you sure?  So the tennis ball is forever in Jaia mouth.  Doesn't Jaia drop the ball at some point.  If so then that is your starting point.

The way that I play fetch with the group is to throw ball and all the dogs going running after it.  Once one dog has the ball in the mouth then the others try and take the ball out of the dog's mouth.  A chase happens and the ball eventually passes from one mouth to another.  Half my dogs like the chase and switch game and the other half likes bringing the ball back to me for another throw.  Either way when it is time to go into the house, the ball stays outside and it is usually dropped right at the back door.  Now when newbies come to my home they always attempt to bring the ball into the house.  I simply don't open the door for them until the ball is dropped.  They all learn this pretty quick.

I was thinking that going back into the house is better than the ball in the dog's mouth, at least that is how it is time and time again.  Could that be the point in time to establish your cue to come to me and hand over the ball?

DPU

So the tennis ball is forever in Jaia mouth. 

Yes, it's in there right now. LOL  

Seriously, I don't remember him ever getting bored with the ball or giving it up willingly (except in training). He has fallen asleep with it in his mouth. I usually end up taking it out of his mouth once we get in the house and he can't escape. (Keeping in mind, I put the ball away months ago and we haven't played since then - This is all in the past and I want to reintroduce the ball.)

DPU

The way that I play fetch with the group

Here's how "fetch with the group goes". I throw whatever (ball, stick, rope) Jaia runs after it. B'asia herds Jaia. Cara and Mia eat rabbit poop. Jaia comes halfway back, ball in his mouth and stares at me in anticipation, waiting for me to throw it again.

Jaia is the only dog interested in following the object. If I have any other dog or combination of dogs out, when I throw something, they watch it sail and then look at me as of to say, "If you wanted the ball, why did you throw it over there? I'm not going to get it. YOU get it." I have exactly one dog who is even remotely interested in fetch. And he LOVES it.

Secondly, they have a doggie door to the back yard. I don't let them in and out for the most part.  

DPU

I was thinking that going back into the house is better than the ball in the dog's mouth

He will chew the ball until it comes apart and then eventually discard the rubber mass. I read that this isn't good for the dog's teeth, so I have stopped playing with the ball at all, so now it's a REALLY highly valued item.

I think starting small and gradually moving up is the best course of action here.  

How about a tennis-ball-like ball that is larger, much larger and heavier.  Can't hold something forever in the mouth.