Dogs are too forgiving

 I have one of the said 'Dependant' breeds.  And after the crap that they have endured during this move, its a wonder they even still look at me.  I certainly wouldn't after being forced to spend 6 nights in a row in a shed... I mean they probably got more walks during that time then ever in their lives, but neither dog had ever spent a night outdoors in his or her life.  Then I sent them both to the chop shop for a spay and neuter.  And they got needles.  Now they have to be contained in an outdoor kennel while I get to have all this fun laying on the ground doing skirting on the house. Neither complained when I was 2 hours late with breakfast this morning.   

And yet, they are both content to lay heads on my lap while I sit on the couch they are no longer allowed on and look up at me with loving eyes for as long as I will let them in the evenings.  Something tells me the breed won't matter. 

corvus

Domestic dogs seem way too forgiving to me

You really need to meet an independent breed like a primitive hound or a few other primitive breeds.  They aren't quite as forgiving.  And they NEVER forget who committed an offense against them. 

Xerxes

And they NEVER forget who committed an offense against them. 

I guess ANY dog forgets if somebody did something to them, the difference is how long they take to trust you back again, dogs move on with their lives faster than humans, they dont dwell on the past, they dont hold grudges, if you keep repeating the offense, any dog will learn not to trust you regardless of the breed, now if you just did it only once then different breeds will take longer to trust you back more than others 

espencer

Xerxes

And they NEVER forget who committed an offense against them. 

 

I guess ANY dog forgets if somebody did something to them, the difference is how long they take to trust you back again, dogs move on with their lives faster than humans, they dont dwell on the past, they dont hold grudges, if you keep repeating the offense, any dog will learn not to trust you regardless of the breed, now if you just did it only once then different breeds will take longer to trust you back more than others 

In my experience, dogs can have excellent memories.

Sasha is pretty forgiving, but she remembers. She can meet someone (or a dog) she knew as a puppy, and responds according to what the relationship was like.  The thing is, she is very interdependent with people, and wants to get along. So she doesn't hold the grudges a primitive dog might.  Doesn't mean she forgets.

I agree that domestic dogs are very forgiving. However, I'm having a hard time thinking of anything I have done to my dogs that I shouldn't be forgiven for... My relationship with them isn't all that different than my relationship with anyone else and I'm considered a pretty loving and generous individual.

Yes, I made the decision to fly them across the nation in a crate to come to me. It was probably uncomfortable and scary, but should I not be forgiven because the reason I did that was to bring them home to me? Yes, I make them potty outside and follow many other rules here but is that something that requires forgiveness?

I guess I'm wondering... corvus, what is the "human rubbish" you deal out that you feel your dogs so easily forgive? Huskymom, doesn't everyone in a move suffer a bit and have to sleep out of their comfy bed and make compromises for living together? Don't we all have to have surgery now and then? When I read the OP, I found myself asking, "What do these people do to their dogs that they feel is too easily forgiven"?

I guess I expect a certain amount of forgiveness from my dogs. I mean, I forgive them for everything they do. I forgive them for digging up the yard and scattering plastic about when we're trying to prepare for their patio to be installed. I forgive B'asia EVERY night for shrieking out in the middle of the night at some imaginary evil and waking me from a sound sleep 3-4 times. I forgive Mia for licking me obsessively day after day after day. I forgive Cara for costing SO much money to maintain. I forgive Jaia for... Okay, I can't think of anything I need to forgive him for.

But my point is, yes, they forgive me my humanness. And I forgive them their dog-ness. This is not a one-sided deal. It's a beautiful, harmonious mutually-forgiving and mutually rewarding relationship. I don't find that my dogs are too forgiving. They forgive me as a true friend would.

Just my thoughts.  

FourIsCompany

I agree that domestic dogs are very forgiving.

I believe that we all as people can learn a very important life lessons from our dogs.  I know that many people should learn to be more forgiving of those around them.  Dogs can teach us so many things in life if we would just listen.  Mine for example show me that long walks are good.  Don't be in too big a hurry to get were you are going, stop and smell the flowers and sometimes you just need a good roll in the grass.  It's good for the soul.

In fact I believe that God put dogs on this earth to remind us of his unconditional love for us.  No matter what, your dog is always there for you and loves you.

I think it really is dog-dependent, as well as breed dependent. But more so dog dependent. Some dogs are very forgiving of just about anything, and some dogs are not so forgiving at all and WILL react badly to certain treatments. On the other hand, I agree with 4IC in that I don't really do anything with/to my dogs that require forgiveness.

There is a difference between doing something that requires forgiveness, and doing something that dogs might not necessarily "enjoy". If my dogs eat an hour late, I don't really think I require forgiveness for it. Just like if my mother makes supper an hour late, I'm not going to hold a grudge (but I might moan about it if I'm really hungry!), nor am I going to let her know I've "forgiven" her for being late. That's just a part of life and you get over it. Now, if I step on my dog's foot by accident - they don't understand "accident" or "unintended actions", they simply understand that I have hurt them. They will let me know that and that, to me, is something that requires forgiveness on their part. Shimmer hates being groomed. She's never had a bad experience, really, but she really dislikes it. So for her each grooming session is a horrible time; she doesn't understand that it's for her own good, she doesn't understand the concet of "matting" hair, or that it's good for her health. She just understands that it's scary for her. So for her, this is something she is constantly "forgiving" me for. Of course I make it easier for her to forgive me by doing it regularly so there are no tangles, giving her delicious treats to try to convince her that it's not so bad (and it's working, little by little!), and making a big deal when she is showing signs of relaxation and lack of anxiety.

It's funny, we're studying revenge and forgiveness right now in social psych, so I find it neat that the same topic came up in here. Forgiveness is not required if you swear out loud, or you accidentally run into an old lady and make her drop her bags. Forgiveness is required when you really do something wrong, that really affects the other person/animal in a bad way. And of course that is up to the victim how something is perceived. Sometimes they take it harder than you thought you have done something. It doesn't matter how you perceive what you've done, it's how they perceive what you have done.

Dogs do have excellent memories, I find often moreso than people realize. And there is a difference between forgiving and forgetting. Just as it is in people. You can forgive something, but that doesn't mean you will ever forget it. People always say that dogs don't dwell on the past. That may be so, they don't sit back likely and reminisce like we do, but they certainly likely remember their past if they have reason to remember it, and it does affect current and future behaviour. The person/animal you are is developed by the person/animal you were before. Whether that is one second, one hour, or one year, you are constantly growing and changing from your past experience.

But for some things, I do see dogs as being far too forgiving for, for things that I know as a person if they happened to me I may never be able to forgive. But then again, aren't there some dogs out there that aren't so forgiving as well, that themselves can never come to forgive a person/other animal for what was done to them? I think if we really think about it, we can find many of such animals.

timsdat

I believe that we all as people can learn a very important life lessons from our dogs. 

Dogs have to be forgiving, in the sense that if one day they up and decided enough was enough and they were no longer forgiving certain things, they likely would be receiving the death sentence in a short time, or are rehomed, or are thrown out of the house, etc. Dogs, evolutionarily speaking, need to have forgiveness as a rather inherent trait on their side, because it's for the benefit of their existance. Dogs that don't forgive well aren't going to do well as a species I don't think.

Humans, on the other hand, find forgiveness quite hard to do. Even simple little things that should not even be an issue can sometimes rear its ugly head for problems that last for years, and sometimes are never resolved. A simple miscommunication can ruin relationships. Humans could do well to be a little MORE forgiving of the people around them, and take that lesson from their dogs.

I wonder, too, is forgiveness a human concept? I'm not saying that is a bad thing. But we most often compare to our experience.

There are some people who will not forgive me for what they feel I did wrong. There are mistakes I have made for which I will not forgive myself. There are some things that I cannot forgive of other people. Other times, I can forgive but never forget and it does color everything.

Do dogs have the concept of forgiveness or do they simply read intent better? A week or so ago, at night, Shadow was barking for quite some time at our rose bush. I went out there to look but could see nothing in it but an abandoned bird nest. I stepped back without looking and got one of his paws. He yelped. Then he circled around and jumped up to put his front paws on me. I didn't punish for that, I didn't over-indulge and offer extra affection. I just stood there and let it pass, not drawing attention to it. You get what you reinforce. I let it be a non-issue about an accident. And he was fine, and wasn't scared about approaching me. I don't think he forgave me because it was not an issue to him that required forgiveness.

OTOH, he cannot stand kennels and will shut down hard if he has to be in one. Since I have had him he has been in a kennel only once and that was post neuter-op. My vet requires overnight stay on all surgeries, no exceptions. He was morose for most of the day. I made steak that evening for him and he was back to his goofy self. It wasn't that he forgave me. I think he thought I was going to leave him there and his prior experience in a kennel in a pet store was enough to make that a bad thing.

So, allow me to anthropromorphize, as well. Perhaps dogs are eternal optimists.

As for unforgiving breeds, I am reminded of what little I know about Akitas.

For independent breeds, I think of the Siberian Husky.

espencer

the difference is how long they take to trust you back again, dogs move on with their lives faster than humans, they dont dwell on the past, they dont hold grudges,

A friend of my dad's teased our Akita through a sliding glass door when he was a puppy.  That friend wasn't invited back to the house for 6 years.  When Shiloh saw him he went ballistic. 

 But you're probably right, the guy was probably wearing the wrong cologne or something. 

Primitive dogs don't forget things because it behooves them to remember.  If a Basenji was hunting with it's tribe in Africa and it encountered a cape buffalo bull that was unusually unruly and bellicose then it would behoove that dog to remember that particular animal-or else it's very survival would be at stake.  They need to remember to ensure survival.

As far as dogs moving on, that is not always the case.  I know dogs that get along fine and play well with 100 or more dogs but when one particular dog shows up, they want that dog dead.  If they move on, then that wouldn't happen.  Most dogs do move on, but some learn once and never forget.
 

Well, I was thinking forgiving in the sense that walking on a mattress is forgiving compared to walking on a pile of sharp, loose rocks. I guess that's not necessarily a correct use of the word.

And I was thinking of the things that my rabbits WON'T forgive until I suck up to them and win them back over with a myriad of tasty treats and loving attention. I catch my hare and put him in a crate and he'll flatly refuse to even look at me for several days. Should I clean out my rabbit's bedroom, she gets sulky and pointedly ignores me until I give her enough tasty treats to warrant her forgetting about the bedroom incident. The rabbits know what they want and if it doesn't align with what I want, too bloody bad. I've had several long arguments with my rabbit about the placement of things in her hutch. She wants her blanket in her litter tray getting disgusting and soiled. I want it on the ground where it's clean and she can lie on it. Every time I see it in, I take it out, and as soon as I leave, she puts it back in again. This goes on for days accompanied with angry foot-stampings, glares, and refusing to eat anything I offer until I leave. It only ends when one of us offers a compromise acceptable to the other. Such as a corner of the blanket hanging in the litter tray but the rest on the ground (where she soiled it a week later anyway!). That kind of behaviour makes you suddenly realise how tolerant and easy dogs are. My dog generally accepts whatever I do to her. She accepted my traditional training methods even though she didn't particularly like them back when we were both young. She accepts my rules even when she doesn't really like them. She accepts me brushing her up the wrong way, which she actually doesn't like. She accepts trips to the vet, having her nails cut, being carried down stairs, unpredictable human behaviour, complete silliness, and being left behind. And that's just the things I could think of off the top of my head.

I don't see why dogs should be expected to forgive anything odd we do to them, really. My rabbit and hare don't see why they shouldn't make me squirm for a few days if I do something they really didn't like. Even cats shoot dirty looks at you for hours (sometimes days) after you worm them or bath them. Why should we take it for granted that our dogs will always forgive us when other animals have some very rigid conditions on their forgiveness? It was Kit's unwillingness to forgive that helped me forge such a good relationship with him. Nowadays, he will speak to me again no matter what I do to him, eventually. But I believe that's only because I've put a lot of work into avoiding the need for him to forgive me in the first place. There's not a lot of motivation to do that if your animal just deals with whatever crazy thing you try next. My thought is that if my dog had been less accepting like my hare, then I wouldn't have taken so long to learn what she was about and how to work with her. Whereas if my hare hadn't been so unforgiving, I wouldn't have had to learn how to work within his comfort zones and I wouldn't have realised how much I take my dog for granted.

ron2

I wonder, too, is forgiveness a human concept? I'm not saying that is a bad thing. But we most often compare to our experience.

Do dogs have the concept of forgiveness or do they simply read intent better?

I'm not sure about dogs because I've never done anything to my dog that she hasn't instantly forgiven me of. I've never done anything to any dog that hasn't been instantly forgiven. But those bunnies of mine care not for intent. Kit usually knows my intent the moment I step into the room with him, but he knows what it means to him. When I come in tense because I have to catch him and I know he'll hate me for it, he knows it's bad news for him, even though he's never been hurt by me and does seem to trust that I never will hurt him. But once I had a hard time catching him and frightened him badly. For two days, he looked away from me every time I tried to approach him. He refused to make eye contact and would not let me touch him and nor would he take his favourite treats from my hand. Finally, 48 hours later, I came to feed him and he hopped over and touched my hand with his nose. I raised my hand and he sniffed it and made eye contact and from then on our relationship was back to normal. I don't know what else to call that but forgiveness. Bonnie doesn't give a damn about intent. All she cares about is that I'm upsetting all her hard work even though I'm doing it because I love and care for her. Rabbits are easily offended and I'm forever making social blunders with Bonnie that I don't even know about until she suddenly makes it clear that she's cross with me. Sometimes I never work out what it was she didn't like.

Xerxes

espencer

the difference is how long they take to trust you back again, dogs move on with their lives faster than humans, they dont dwell on the past, they dont hold grudges,

 

A friend of my dad's teased our Akita through a sliding glass door when he was a puppy.  That friend wasn't invited back to the house for 6 years.  When Shiloh saw him he went ballistic. 

 But you're probably right, the guy was probably wearing the wrong cologne or something. 

Primitive dogs don't forget things because it behooves them to remember.  If a Basenji was hunting with it's tribe in Africa and it encountered a cape buffalo bull that was unusually unruly and bellicose then it would behoove that dog to remember that particular animal-or else it's very survival would be at stake.  They need to remember to ensure survival.

As far as dogs moving on, that is not always the case.  I know dogs that get along fine and play well with 100 or more dogs but when one particular dog shows up, they want that dog dead.  If they move on, then that wouldn't happen.  Most dogs do move on, but some learn once and never forget.
 

I can identify with the fact that some dogs do remember, and not forgive, the acts of certain humans or other animals.  Sioux, when she was an adolescent pup, wandered into the horse paddock.  My Arab chased her out, and scared the crap out of her.  She never goes near the paddock when he is in it.  Maybe she "forgave" him, who knows?  But, she certainly never forgot.

triggering memories is not the same thing as dwelling on the past or holding a grudge.....